VQ Counters - NO Debates

[archaeolept]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.

It's very unlikely that longdead will be able to do enough damage to her to get through a protection of 20-30, especially if she has a fireshield.

---

yeah, and you're lucky if that's all she has. Armor of 30+ would be standard in the full strat by the midgame. defense the same, + fireshield, and, of course, the 5+ mirror images and mistform. I really doubt that masses of fodder undead could do anything to her, though I may be wrong. She is flying, and is likely attacking the rear as well...

as far as counters, other than trying to mimick the VQ formula itself, I take Marignon w/ a Baphomet F9 S9 blessing, and create hordes of flaming fate-twisted flagellants. that works, but is not exactly generally applicable.

[ May 05, 2004, 16:10: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PhilD:
Not an expert by any means, but Staff of Storms should keep the VQ walking all across the battlefield. If you have any kind of long-range, high-precision spells, you might get her before she comes through the (preferably undead) fodder around your mages.

Preventing the VQ from flying can actually be counterproductive, since then it will not immediately outrun its fodder and present itself as a target for your mages. I'm not saying you should NEVER ground it, but be aware that doing so CAN be counterproductive.

[PvK]

Other ideas:

Blindness

Paralysis

Black Bow of Betulf

the missile weapon that kills in one shot

capturing her home castle

unliving summons

outnumbering with own summoned Vampire Lords

Liches and Bog Mummies can do similar things, perhaps better when they have high built-in protection, which can be harder to counter than etherealness

magic weapons (bypass ethereal)

Death summons (several relatively cheap and skilled warriors available with magic weapons included and no life for VQ to drain)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness

Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.

Paralysis

While not quite as overpowering as it once was, due to the fact that it's no longer permanent, Petrify provides a means of applying irresistable paralysis to anything. It's much easier to put down an SC when it can't move. It helps that the targetting AI is will preferentially target the flying, in-your-face VQ here.

Black Bow of Betulf

Too much of a long shot: The multiple mirror images and/or air shielding of a buffed up SC will make it difficult for an archer firing a single arrow, even with high precision, to successfully hit. If successful, however, this can certainly be supremely annoying, as it may take several turns to be rid that feeblemindedness, during which the VQ will be mostly useless.

the missile weapon that kills in one shot

MR negates. See problems above with anything strictly MR-based.

capturing her home castle

This will certainly put an end to the problem, in conjunction with a strategy to put the VQ down in or out of battle.

unliving summons

Good as part of a one-two punch.

outnumbering with own summoned Vampire Lords

This can work: The lifedraining attacks will affect and fatigue out the VQ, and it appears that lifedrain may still inflict fatigue damage even when it fails to cause physical damage due to protection. It helps that one of you is also immortal. In YOUR dominion, the sheer crush of hundreds of vampires may very well be enough to stop the VQ in its tracks, simply because with all damage shields only of minimal value against the vampires, even if the VQ is powerful enough to slay them with impunity, they won't actually STAY dead, and it will be impossible to kill them all within the 50 turns alotted to you for a battle. Thus, strategically, the VQ always loses this.

Liches and Bog Mummies can do similar things, perhaps better when they have high built-in protection, which can be harder to counter than etherealness

A lich can certainly be tweaked effectively for battle, and his higher base protection will negate the need for ironskin, so he can Body Eth himself in place of ironskin. He also has the benefit of having innate D3, and thus doesn't have wasted blood magic.

magic weapons (bypass ethereal)

Always a helpful option for dealing with any ethereal SC, VQ or not.

Death summons (several relatively cheap and skilled warriors available with magic weapons included and no life for VQ to drain)

Wights, perhaps. VQs tend to do more poorly against undead for the loss of all life-draining options, and the fact that most undead are not susceptible to mass damage shields like BoW or Soul Vortex. Simply burying your opponent under a deluge of them is often adequate to attain strategic victory.

[ May 05, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by archaeolept:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.

It's very unlikely that longdead will be able to do enough damage to her to get through a protection of 20-30, especially if she has a fireshield.

---

yeah, and you're lucky if that's all she has. Armor of 30+ would be standard in the full strat by the midgame. defense the same, + fireshield, and, of course, the 5+ mirror images and mistform. I really doubt that masses of fodder undead could do anything to her, though I may be wrong. She is flying, and is likely attacking the rear as well...

as far as counters, other than trying to mimick the VQ formula itself, I take Marignon w/ a Baphomet F9 S9 blessing, and create hordes of flaming fate-twisted flagellants. that works, but is not exactly generally applicable.

---

I said lifeless not longdead units. You know, clayman, crushers, wights and such who have a significant number of HP and good attack. VQ defense is not very great and these units will penetrate it often enough to make a difference. Bunch of crappy longdead are not good to handle any SC. A nation with good death magic and gem income has a variety of summons to choose to counter VQ.

Shades are another good and cheap way to get her. Cheap summons with magical weapons and boots of flying should do the job. Being stealthy allows them to surprise attack VQ or hunt her down without her knowing where the danger is.

Basically any SC with boots of flying can kill her.

[Taqwus]

Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
Perhaps Weapons of Sharpness should grant the 'magic' flag, unless it already does.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness

Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.
...

---

It can be part of a combination of counter-tactics. If it sticks, the VQ becomes rather less effective. It's also a Fire-1 spell which isn't terribly hard to reach (and a certain nation starts with the spell pre-researched and has cheap Fire-1 mages). If you do have cheap fire-1 mages (and there is at least one random site which provides these), then it may be a pretty cheap thing to try.

Same thinking on the missile weapons - ya they may miss or be resisted, but they are cheap to produce and use.

Curse is of course also a good idea, since the VQ will probably have to be fought more than once.

The "dominion switch" trap I think sounds like a good technique, too. I'm not sure it does, but it seems like it should. I seem to recall some months ago, someone with an immortal griping about attacking a province with their dominion, only to die and find that fluctuations in dominion had caused their dominion to leave. Also, all other strategic actions I know of seem to occur before combat. So, I think attracting VQ's to areas in their dominion, where you have a bunch of priests preaching (and whatever else you may have - Black Priests, Inquisitors, blood sacrifice, Skeptics, false idols...) to remove her dominion just before she arrives. VQ-slayers move in on the same turn (and perhaps the living non-priest bait moves out).

PvK