VQ Counters - NO Debates

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Wow. Very impressive.

Even in +10 emor dominion, the angels wrecked her before she could buff. I had a few problems getting the angels to attack the right undead though. Even when Emor dosen't bring armies, there are usually a few skeletons lying around. While the angels kill any undead they swing at, they also get their asses handed to them in 1-2 hits even by skeletons. Without trying it, I imagine two Groups of them would be sufficient to take out a NAKED vq. This VQ had 0 experience, and only quickness, invuln, mistform, soul vortex, and breath of winter.

A non-naked VQ on the other hand is another matter entirely. What's the standard build for a tricked VQ these days?

Wraith Sword
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of Magic Resistance
Pendant of Luck

I'll see how she does in all that. Get back to yas.

Nice! I am actually having fun doing this, it is like running a test lab. Blitz is it possible to run your test multiple times? I use the Clash of titans map and I am on turn 289 lol I have something like 220 clams hehe.

Also has anyone come up with any Capital Jacking ideas? Because to make the hit squad tactic work you must also jack the Ermor Capital at the same time.

[Pirateiam]

Make sure you have her in +10 domain. Makes a HUGE difference.

Yeah I allway keep her in at least a +8 dominion. My problem is she has so much experience now that I think it is starting to effect my results.

[Blitz]

Nice! I am actually having fun doing this, it is like running a test lab. Blitz is it possible to run your test multiple times? I use the Clash of titans map and I am on turn 289 lol I have something like 220 clams hehe.

Not really. I just started a game as Arcoscopile and made a zillion philosophers, switched sides and made a zillion researchers for Emor.

Once I got to 7 on both sides, I had just enough pearls for one fight. One side note - the Arcoscophile research machine easily doubled Emor.

"A philosopher a day keeps the VQ away"

[IKerensky]

All thoses counter against VQ is nice but, cna I ask a question :

- What did your opponent do with your counter AND his VQ ?


Wich I mean someone suggest 3 Host for angels ( i.e CONJ 7 , 150 Astral gems and 5 Astral 5 caster ).

So in front of you you will have : 15 angels, 3 archangels AND the VQ ! I guess to evaluate the value of a counter you have to think that your opponent will have the same basic gear than you. We can even suppose you develop at the same speed, research at the same speed and gems at the same speed.

So in fact we are back to the real difference: your pretender vs his VQ, your nation vs his.

I am unsure VQ is so much over/under-valuated, what I think is that examinating counters isn't really going anywhere if you keep on devicing a way to kill the VQ, or the be more precise to kill one of THE VQs, as the problem people suggest is having 3-5 VQs in the same game.

I think we need to concentrate on strategies that could win the game AND be able to counter an ethereal immortal flying opponent.

Perhaps a list of things for each nation in fact.

Also it is clear the real thing that need to be countered is the rampant temple-castle dominion crush that support the VQ and seems to render it much more powerfull...

But this answer my first question as to where was gone all the ressources you used to counter it : they were burn in castle, temple and priest...

Also the VQ being a pretender it generate his own dominion, add her a sneaking flying prophet, with some tools and I have a hard time envisioning where she will fight out of his own dominion...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share

Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blitz:
Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share

Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no.

---

They are pricey... no way around that... and the most economically viable way to use them seems, ironically, to be spend more by summoning several Hosts... and keeping them together to increase their power.

But they're far from useless against the "non-undead"... that Awe(+4) that each angel has, is actually a pretty snazzy defense. Any normal morale unit stands a pretty high chance of not being able to attack the angel... I was suprised at how many "christmas lights" I saw in my merely basic tests.

Even with chaff issues... staking the VQ to a protective army already seems like a bit of a victory, because she no longer has the flight ability at her disposal... and thus is much more predictable. The Angelic Host caster, could similarly put chaff with his angels... though whether this would be a net gain is debatable.

To respond to your earlier point of:

If you want to make sure the angels get the right target, you may not want to just summondrop them on your target if there's a lot of clutter there: If you order them to attack fliers, on the other hand, they'll nearly always get their victim, because as the lone flier of the Ermorian horde, the VQ will be singled out for death by anyone told to attack fliers.

This is obviously a superior way to go in many ways. However, my idea was merely catching an overconfident VQ out causing turmoil by suprise...

The reality is, that non-Ermorian VQ's (there can be only one) are what most of us "non-expert" players will be facing in the coming months... I think this thread is useful mainly in dispensing with some of the fear/awe that a VQ has started to engender.

[Gandalf Parker]

you know you can edit something like the mini map to put agelic hosts in a provice, set the scales, assign a VQ with your choice of eq, and then start a game over and over. it gives everything but research. Come to think of it you can assign researched spells.

Or if I really wanted alot research I think Id use the superhost switch to leave the game running in a loop while I eat lunch