Item List: Most Used, Less Useful etc etc

[PvK]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Pvk do you really believe it was the Elf Bane the difference?

A fully equipped Allfather can take out much more than 30 seasonal spirit, even with a magic trinket sword

Yep. As Graeme mentioned, in Dominions I, the Allfather was a rainbow mage and a good fighter, but not a giant. I had just seen a large veteran army of Vanheim troops, including equipped heroic commanders, get wiped out by seasonal spirits, since even the heroes with magic weapons, required multiple hits on a lion to kill one, by which time their friends were killed and they would be overwhelmed. The Allfather and another leader (with slightly better defense equipment too, IIRC) just stood toe-to-toe with a huge number of lions, wiped them out, and went on to slay others. It was close though, as the fatigue added up.

In Doms II, although seasonal spirits are less of a threat due to their increased cost, it's still effective as an early rush tactic if enough gems are available. And later on, there are still some very powerful magical beings, so it's good there is an effective anti-weapon.

PvK

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
I had just seen a large veteran army of Vanheim troops, including equipped heroic commanders, get wiped out by seasonal spirits, since even the heroes with magic weapons, required multiple hits on a lion to kill one, by which time their friends were killed and they would be overwhelmed.

Wouldn't they have held out much better with lifedrain weapons that would actually replenish their life and fatigue as they fought? While the kill rate would have been slower, they could have then fought indefinitely.

The Allfather and another leader (with slightly better defense equipment too, IIRC) just stood toe-to-toe with a huge number of lions, wiped them out, and went on to slay others. It was close though, as the fatigue added up.

I say again: Wraith Swords, Blood Thorns, and you could have fought an indefinite number without having it be "close".

In Doms II, although seasonal spirits are less of a threat due to their increased cost, it's still effective as an early rush tactic if enough gems are available. And later on, there are still some very powerful magical beings, so it's good there is an effective anti-weapon.

I would think they'd be a better weapon against things like Mechanical Mans, Golems, Crushers, Iron Dragons, and the like, which are lifeless, and therefore, negate the benefits of using a blood thorn or wraith sword, and thus the extra punch can help. Otherwise, you'd think that being able to indefinitely sustain combat, regardless of the kill rate, would be more valuable.

My point: Would a more classical choice, namely, Wraith Swords and Blood Thorns, have been a better choice? Lions, after all, have 0 protection, so it's not like the increased damage would help you tear through armor better...and you'd get life and fatigue back while fighting, negating the enemy's damage, as opposed to simply substituting another lion in place of the dead one flailing at you: It replaces the concept of a hitpoint pool, with a hitpoint buffer. The only time I'd see the Elf Bane as being superior in such a case is if you had an alternate source of lifedrain, such as a Soul Vortex.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
My point: Would a more classical choice, namely, Wraith Swords and Blood Thorns, have been a better choice?

I doubt that Vanheim would have had access to either by turn 10-15, which is when armies of multiple castings of seasonal spirits started to show up in Dom I.

[Arralen]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Arralen:
supply items:
The cauldron gives 50 supply, while the bag only nets 25 points - and both add up, so it does make sense to forge one or two of them for your biggest armies.

The cauldron costs more gems per supply unit, and you can use two wineskins on two scouts, so there is no reason to build them.

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O.C. you may start piling up additional scout. But it adds to MM.
And than don't forget those who play with slow research - rushing for Con-4 might not be an option for them.

[ May 26, 2004, 04:51: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
I had just seen a large veteran army of Vanheim troops, including equipped heroic commanders, get wiped out by seasonal spirits, since even the heroes with magic weapons, required multiple hits on a lion to kill one, by which time their friends were killed and they would be overwhelmed.

Wouldn't they have held out much better with lifedrain weapons that would actually replenish their life and fatigue as they fought? While the kill rate would have been slower, they could have then fought indefinitely.

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That might have worked too, possibly, although they had a lot of lions and other things to kill, and if they had to hit each of them for multiple turns, the rest of the army with them probably would have been lost instead of mostly surviving, and there would be several times more chances for the lions to take them out.

quote:

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In Doms II, although seasonal spirits are less of a threat due to their increased cost, it's still effective as an early rush tactic if enough gems are available. And later on, there are still some very powerful magical beings, so it's good there is an effective anti-weapon.

I would think they'd be a better weapon against things like Mechanical Mans, Golems, Crushers, Iron Dragons, and the like, which are lifeless, and therefore, negate the benefits of using a blood thorn or wraith sword, and thus the extra punch can help. Otherwise, you'd think that being able to indefinitely sustain combat, regardless of the kill rate, would be more valuable.

My point: Would a more classical choice, namely, Wraith Swords and Blood Thorns, have been a better choice? Lions, after all, have 0 protection, so it's not like the increased damage would help you tear through armor better...and you'd get life and fatigue back while fighting, negating the enemy's damage, as opposed to simply substituting another lion in place of the dead one flailing at you: It replaces the concept of a hitpoint pool, with a hitpoint buffer. The only time I'd see the Elf Bane as being superior in such a case is if you had an alternate source of lifedrain, such as a Soul Vortex.

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Er, maybe. Probably so for fighters with tons of hitpoints. In this case though my fighters only had so many hitpoints, so getting hit hard by one or two lions might have meant their end. Also, a Wraith Sword is a two-handed weapon (and I didn't have 40 blood slaves nor a blood-3 forger to make blood thorns, which don't do much damage anyway when wielded by mortals), and I think the left hand equipment was a major factor in my guys' survival in the face of all those attacks. With different heroes and forgers available, those might have been alternatives, though.

In sum, though, I think Elf Bane is a good weapon for the price, though would mainly use them just against serious Magic Being threats.

PvK

[ May 26, 2004, 20:12: Message edited by: PvK ]