Pretender Balance Mod

[Chris Byler]

Acashic Record, IMO, is only effective if you crank the site frequency way up (this both increases the success rate and number of sites found, and decreases the relative costs by giving everyone more gem income). 25 pearls to often find nothing? No thanks, I'll use the path-specific spells for a gem or two each, or send some mages to search the old fashioned way for no gems at all.

Granted, a lot of people *do* turn the site frequency way up, but I don't (at least in SP) - magic dominates the endgame enough already, increasing the site frequency only accelerates this.

You also neglect the awesome research power of rainbows. Titanoids can't match this, partly because of their new path cost and partly because of their chassis cost.

I think the introduction of the bless system did nerf the old "2 or 3 of everything" rainbow, for some nations. But others don't rely on their bless effect (base Ulm comes to mind - they could really use a strong researcher and good site searcher, too).

Also, you don't need the Elemental Staff/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry for high-path-requiring rituals; for rituals you only need to boost one path at a time (or occasionally two for something like Astral Corruption, King of Banefires, Father Illearth etc.) Make some individual path boosting items (which are much cheaper) and swap them around. Humanoids have plenty of item slots to play with (except the archmage on horse or freak, who is handicapped by his inability to wear boots of earth, so don't take him if you want earth). ES/RoS/RoW give research bonuses to a rainbow, and make him stronger on the battlefield, but they aren't really needed for rituals.

Rainbows aren't the best for path 5+ spells like elemental courts, globals, etc - although they can cast them the usually require items to do so. They really excel at research, site searching and forging (few items and even fewer magic sites require more than 3 in a path).

And finally, only some nations/themes really require strong dominion (principally Ermor and extreme temperature lovers). Yes, I know it's the name of the game, but dominion isn't the only way to win or defeat enemies. SC pretenders want dominion over their battlefields, but conventional armies can live without it. Most nations can spread dominion by preaching or building temples even if their god's dominion strength is low. Later in the game, especially on large maps, the dominion strength at initial purchase is less important because of the temple boost, more preaching and overall more sources of dominion. Nations with strong and/or cheap priests, inquisitors, cheap temples, or blood sacrifice (although this costs more than other methods) are particularly good at getting along with lower dominion strengths. I don't think buying every pretender's dominion up to 6 is a fair comparison - not all nations need that high a dominion.

[Blitz]

I had kind of given up figuring out how to balance humanoids with titans. But I had a few ideas, which might make them more appealing.

- Lower the cost of all humanoid pretenders to 0. The cost of raising dominion is already prohibitive. When you consider that making an 8-path rainbow Ghost King costs only 80 points more than a humanoid, you would have to be a complete moron to go with the humanoid. The Ghost King comes with the full Vampire Queen list of goodies (less immortality and regeneration), comes with a level of death magic, is obviously a first-class supercombatant, and can do anything a humanoid can do.

For example:

Ghost King - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 321 points
Frost Father - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 261 points

Even by using the humanoid in the manner most suited to the chassis, the difference is negligible. The GK's extra toys are indisputably worth 60 points. Any deviation from the basic rainbow template, be it higher dominion or fewer paths will only decrease the gap.

Now let's look at a "free" Frost Father...

Ghost King - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 321 points
Frost Father - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 206 points

Much more reasonable. The Frost Father is going to have lots of points left over for castles and scales. I would imagine humans would have a better idea how to rule an empire than a ghost anyways, so having excellent scales would be a fitting role for a human. Losing the SC power of a pretender god, but gaining a rainbow mage and very fortuitous scales might tempt some people to go the humanoid route.

Just make them all free, like the Oracle and Manticore and Nataraja mkay?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Acashic Record, IMO, is only effective if you crank the site frequency way up (this both increases the success rate and number of sites found, and decreases the relative costs by giving everyone more gem income). 25 pearls to often find nothing? No thanks, I'll use the path-specific spells for a gem or two each, or send some mages to search the old fashioned way for no gems at all.

The path-specific spells are also nice (I've underestimated them for a long time). 'Manual' searching is too slow.

Granted, a lot of people *do* turn the site frequency way up, but I don't (at least in SP) - magic dominates the endgame enough already, increasing the site frequency only accelerates this.

The most common frequency I've seen here is 50. That would mean in mountains, the chance is 75%. Assuming that I know how the site placement works, that would mean an average of 3 sites in 'good' areas. That's not 'often nothing'. I'm certainly not saying you should spam Acashic all over the place.

You also neglect the awesome research power of rainbows. Titanoids can't match this, partly because of their new path cost and partly because of their chassis cost.

The difference in research isn't that great, and if you're site-searching, you're not researching.

I think the introduction of the bless system did nerf the old "2 or 3 of everything" rainbow, for some nations. But others don't rely on their bless effect (base Ulm comes to mind - they could really use a strong researcher and good site searcher, too).

Possibly. With Ulm, though, I want Forge up ASAP. That requires a 4 Earth for reliability.

Also, you don't need the Elemental Staff/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry for high-path-requiring rituals; for rituals you only need to boost one path at a time (or occasionally two for something like Astral Corruption, King of Banefires, Father Illearth etc.) Make some individual path boosting items (which are much cheaper) and swap them around. Humanoids have plenty of item slots to play with (except the archmage on horse or freak, who is handicapped by his inability to wear boots of earth, so don't take him if you want earth). ES/RoS/RoW give research bonuses to a rainbow, and make him stronger on the battlefield, but they aren't really needed for rituals.

Er, okay? What Rituals are you speaking of, here?

Rainbows aren't the best for path 5+ spells like elemental courts, globals, etc - although they can cast them the usually require items to do so. They really excel at research, site searching and forging (few items and even fewer magic sites require more than 3 in a path).

They suffer from severe overwork. If I can only do one thing a turn with my Pretender, I want the most effective return possible. I don't feel I get that with Rainbows.

[quote]I don't think buying every pretender's dominion up to 6 is a fair comparison - not all nations need that high a dominion. /QUOTE]

I used the number that other people told me was most common in MP games. I'll try to get better data from now on.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Just make them all free, like the Oracle and Manticore and Nataraja mkay?

I already mentioned this. However, you do this, and you lose the balance between the Human Pretenders, because they're not all made alike.

I mean, why would you take the Crone then? I would be hard-pressed to reason my way out of taking the Enchantress.

[Blitz]

I already mentioned this. However, you do this, and you lose the balance between the Human Pretenders, because they're not all made alike.

I mean, why would you take the Crone then? I would be hard-pressed to reason my way out of taking the Enchantress.

Well the crone has FOUR misc slots for one thing. That dosen't suck. Of course the Freak Lord would be wholly superior to the Archmage then, having THREE misc slots and trample, etc. You could tweak here and there... give the Archmage dominion 2 to start maybe.

But in most cases, I would suggest you recost pretenders rather than change their abilities. It's a lot easier to get the community to accept a new price for a unit than to understand why you decided to give the Archmage four arm slots =).

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Hrm. FYI a pretender with only 2's can get 5+ in every path through items only. And I'm not talking artifacts here, that's doable at Construction 6.

Question is, who is going to forge those items for the 2222222 pretender? I have to do some downloading before I can look at the magiboost.xls file, but I don't your low rainbow can actually forge the items necessary to get close to all 5's.

And I don't see many human players being willing to forge the more powerful, hard to get, magic boosting items for an opponent.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
According to Zen, 4 paths at 3 would be the closest thing to 'normal' Raibows you get, and 4 is just as close to 1 as it is to 7.

So in your view 1 path is just as 'rainbowish' as 7? I'm not Zen, but I'm pretty confident he would call those 4 paths a minimum to get the 'rainbow' label.

140 Pearls (the price of the quoted equipment) gets you almost 6 Acashics.

Pure theory. In practice a true rainbow with brains will use a Hammer to forge these rings. Ie, 90 pearls, about 3.5 ARs.

Acashic, unlike the equipment, gives you an immediate and permanent gem income back.

Sounds like you're assuming equipment is always forged out of purpose.

It is true that I don't see the point of true Rainbows.

Great, I've no problem with that, that's a perfectly valid point of view. The only thing I want to point out is the method you use to demonstrate it - ie, designing a decent pretender who capitalizes on his/her strengths, and then comparing him/her to an human mage who doesn't. It makes humans look worse than they are by several orders of magnitude. As if they needed that.

*shrugs* Where is the benefit over, say, a Great Mother with (etc.)

Maybe, but that's besides the point I'm discussing.