Pretender Balance Mod

[Chris Byler]

I think these numbers demonstrate the real problem with the humanoids: low new path cost only decreases the cost to get level 1 in that path. It doesn't change the cost to get level 2, 3, 4, etc.

There was a proposal a while back to give some pretender forms a new ability: increasing the level of a magic path would cost less (or more) points. If humanoids paid only 50% of normal points to increase the level of a path, in addition to their low new path cost, they could be real magical powerhouses and have strong blessings too. (This would of course be offset by their low dominion and physical weakness, but it would make them much more interesting to play.)

Or, of course, more humanoids could start with more and/or higher level paths. Frost father water 2 air 1, master druid nature 2 earth 1, crone astral 1 death 1 nature 1, great enchantress astral 2 nature 1, great warlock fire 1 astral 1 blood 1, etc. At the same costs they have now, this would make it significantly cheaper to get to higher levels of magic in those paths, while also making them more different from each other by having preferred paths. This would tend to encourage a 2-3 paths at level 4-6 humanoid rather than a 5-7 paths at level 2-3 one - although you would still be able to do either.

[PvK]

Seems like that might be a good idea (altering the base path costs by a factor, and then giving that sort of factor as an advantage to pretenders like the humans).

I'll be interested to hear the opinions of folks who have played humanoids and rainbows successfully as to whether they think this could be unbalanced for strong RB/human players.

PvK

[Arralen]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Or, of course, more humanoids could start with more and/or higher level paths. Frost father water 2 air 1, master druid nature 2 earth 1, crone astral 1 death 1 nature 1, great enchantress astral 2 nature 1, great warlock fire 1 astral 1 blood 1, etc. At the same costs they have now, this would make it significantly cheaper to get to higher levels of magic in those paths, while also making them more different from each other by having preferred paths. This would tend to encourage a 2-3 paths at level 4-6 humanoid rather than a 5-7 paths at level 2-3 one - although you would still be able to do either.

That's what I say.

Hey, why don't I do it?
Well, let's see if I find the time to do the mod.
(doesn't look good. I'm in the midst of doing a 'scenario', catched a cold lately and have some deadlines to cope with in RL)

A.

[Sheap]

I think if you were to give a few of the various humanoids several natural paths and a high (60-80) path cost this could help solve the problem with lack of diversity among human pretenders.

Right now they are all used as rainbow mages, and one rainbow mage is much like another. Making some of them ineffective in that role, for instance giving the druid 2 points in all four sorcery paths and prohibitive path cost with elements (just an example) would make a powerful multi role mage with a good potential blessing (maybe even dual 9s) which is still not a rainbow mage.

Such creatures would still be weak in combat and (unless used with a nation that has excellent blessability) probably worse than regular rainbow mages at more or less everything. But at least there would be some diversity.

I have decided to take it upon myself to do a minor Mod (I'm still working on the Spell Ref Liga! No worries).

Look for it later tonight with Pretender modifications.

[LintMan]

Originally posted by PvK:
Seems like that might be a good idea (altering the base path costs by a factor, and then giving that sort of factor as an advantage to pretenders like the humans).

I'll be interested to hear the opinions of folks who have played humanoids and rainbows successfully as to whether they think this could be unbalanced for strong RB/human players.

I had thought the idea Chris mentioned was interesting as well and was thinking about bringing it up, so thanks for saving me the effort, Chris!

I'm not an expert on the balance issues, but I have done some calculations on what you could do with cheaper costs per point.

Let's assume the Crone, with 10/point initial paths, no starting magic. Costs listed are just for the magic paths, and don't include the initial Crone cost (25) or dominion increases, etc.

At standard 8pts/level:
One path to L2: 26
7 paths to L2: 182
8 paths to L2: 208

One path to L4: 82
3 paths to L4: 246
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 376
7 paths to L4: 574
8 paths to L4: 656

One path to L8: 290
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 372
2 paths to L8: 580
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 662

At 7pts/level:
One path to L2: 24
7 paths to L2: 168
8 paths to L2: 192

One path to L4: 73
3 paths to L4: 219
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 339
7 paths to L4: 511
8 paths to L4: 584

One path to L8: 255
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 328
2 paths to L8: 510
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 583

At 6pts/level:
One path to L2: 22
7 paths to L2: 154
8 paths to L2: 176

One path to L4: 64
3 paths to L4: 192
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 302
7 paths to L4: 448
8 paths to L4: 512

One path to L8: 220
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 284
2 paths to L8: 440
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 504

At 5pts/level:
One path to L2: 20
7 paths to L2: 140
8 paths to L2: 160

One path to L4: 55
3 paths to L4: 165
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 265
7 paths to L4: 385
8 paths to L4: 440

One path to L8: 185
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 240
2 paths to L8: 370
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 425

At 4pts/level:
One path to L2: 18
7 paths to L2: 126
8 paths to L2: 144

One path to L4: 46
3 paths to L4: 138
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 228
7 paths to L4: 322
8 paths to L4: 368

One path to L8: 150
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 196
2 paths to L8: 300
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 346

Overall, it seems to me that 7pts/level wouldn't be an unreasonable boost for the human pretenders. Maybe 6pts/level might work, particularly if it was offset with a larger new-path startup cost. Anything below 6pts/level IMHO seems like it could be very unbalancing.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
There was a proposal a while back to give some pretender forms a new ability: increasing the level of a magic path would cost less (or more) points. If humanoids paid only 50% of normal points to increase the level of a path, in addition to their low new path cost, they could be real magical powerhouses and have strong blessings too.

If you go that route too far, there's a risk to get unbalanced results, with human mages getting mid- or high blessings effects cheaper than other pretenders that are supposed to be proficient in these paths (eg, nature-9 earth-9 would cost less on a Master Druid than on a Great Mother, which isn't something you want).

To eliminate this issue, I'd suggest something like:

Increase in a path the pretender (any type) starts with: 6 points * extra level

Increase in a path the pretender (human mage type) doesn't start with : 8 points * extra level

Increase in a path the pretender (other types) doesn't start with : 10 points * extra level

That's the idea, the numeric values are just examples and may be altered. The base value used in 'paths you don't start with' could also be a function of 'new paths cost X'. Thus a Naga would also pay less than a Virtue to increase her magic in paths both aren't initially proficient in. Finally, you might want to change the cost of new paths if you make extensive use of this system.

[ June 19, 2004, 07:05: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]