Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Blitz]

Shedu was dramatically increased. I'd like to read your comments on it too. The ones about Golden Age were a nice read, but I can't comment them. I'm not experienced enough to see how good a unit is without testing it in battle first.

Well the main limitation of the Shedu remains... that you only get head and 2 misc slots. In order to make him into a viable SC choice you have to take 5 more levels of astral (to combat magic deul), then at least level 3 earth. He can't use any lifedrain weapons, and as a trampler they aren't too useful anyway. He'll never be able to wear boots of quickness or jade armor, so if you want him hasted you need to pay 80 design points for water 1. He's never going to be a world-class SC, so increasing his combat statistics really only enhance his value as an early-game trampling expander.

The armor bonus is redundant with stoneskin, which is available early, and castable with his base chassis. The defense value is definately big, as is boosting his domain to the highest level. However, I doubt these abilities offset the drawbacks of less equipment slots.

In comparison, the Virtue...

- Has the same path cost, and costs 75 points less.
- She (now) has the same dominion, as well as two excellent abilities (lightning resistance/Awe 4!!).
- She only has level 2 air, rather than two paths, but this since he's 75 points cheaper on an 80-point chassis, getting a second path (of your choice mind you) costs you only 5 points more than what you would have to pay for a Shedu.
- She has a full compliment of equipment slots, and comes standard with a nice flambeau

On the flip side the Shedu is a beast at 230 hit points. However, I think you would find him to be limited as a lategame combat SC... however I think he would do quite well as a caster SC, similar to a monolith. When you compare him to other (non crappy) national pretenders, I think he's still strictly second-tier. The Nataraja is clearly superior (and available to Arcoscophale). The Allfather (at the same cost mind you) is clearly superior. The Carrion Dragon (50 points), is in another class. Now he may be comparable to other national choices such as the Jade Emperor or Mother of Tuathas, two similarily priced national pretenders.

However, by maintaining his 80-point paths and limited item slot compliment, it's almost certian that he'll never completely excel at either fighting or casting. At this point he'll make a good expansion aid for the first few turns, then probably retire to the library to make golems... showing up to cast a few big spells in the more important battles. I actually considered lowering his price (to 50), or his path cost (to 40) in addition to raising his combat values. Limiting his item slots has a crippling effect on his overall usefulness... given these severe restrictions on usable items, he has to be great in other areas. Maybe filling the "early trampler, lategame golem maker" niche will be enough... but somehow I doubt it =).

I'm open to suggestions on how to make him somewhat on par with the better avatars available to Arcoscephale... namely the Virtue, Nataraja, Lady of Fortune, Prince of Death, and Ghost King. Since Arcoscephale has access to all of the non-unique avatars that I consider in the top tier... you have to make the Shedu one of the best pretender gods in the game, or else regardless of his strength he's not going to be used since Arcoscephale has such diverse choices in this area. How to accomplish that while maintaining the general idea Illwinter had for the Shedu (trampling flier, limited magic, no item slots), is the question. He was already the highest hit point, non immobile pretender in the game (tied with the kraken, which was aquatic and of course dosen't fly). Even as a flying, durable, trampling chassis with magical paths in both astral and earth, he saw limited or no use. This speaks volumes about the power of items in this game.

[ June 18, 2004, 13:24: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Chris Byler]

Why not start the Shedu with Astral 3 Earth 3, instead of 1? Let him be strong in those paths since he will pay dearly to have any others (and you're pretty much forced to buy Astral pretty high anyway to protect against Magic Duel). He already has a high base point cost, why doesn't he get anything much for it?

Limited magical versatility and item use is still a bit of a problem, but he can now much more cheaply get a level of magic power that can make him a contender on the battlefield doing something like Power of the Spheres, Summon Earthpower, Blade Wind x3. Compared to other battlefield mages he is pretty tough even without casting defensive buffs. So once the usefulness of body ethereal, stoneskin, attack rear is exhausted, he can start standing behind bodyguards and troops and casting powerful spells over them.

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them... Riches from Beneath will offset the problems of a mandatory sloth dominion, if you can afford it.

As for Golden Age: I like the idea of myrmidons being more of an elite unit in skills/morale. They may not have modern equipment but they can fight like the heroes of old Awe on the wind riders seems cool too - and they *are* more expensive than Valkyries for little benefit. And I agree that Golden Age needs something magically to make up for the loss of the Astrologer, although I don't know what. Stronger or cheaper Mystics, a new mage, or maybe an arch-priestess with Nature 2 Holy 4 (making them a strong-priest nation)?

Hmm, I just had an idea. Give them the three Metal Adepts as capitol-only mages (perhaps a new capitol site, Metallic Tower?). They're astral and elemental, so they don't do anything a Mystic couldn't theoretically get; but they give you more predictability of what elements you get. Plus two of their elements are air and earth, which Golden Age Arco gets gems for. Best of all it requires almost no work to implement because the units already exist

[Scott Hebert]

Um, yikes. I think you guys have missed the point of GE Arco.

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

They lose the Astrologer, they gain the Philosopher. Both capital-only, with different foci. Oh, yes, they're not THAT much better than Sages... but no one gets Sages, do they? They're _clearly_ the best researchers in the game. No, they're not much good for anything but researching, but it's not like they'll be doing anything else.

They also have better access to Crystal Coins, so the loss of the Astrologer isn't so bad.

Clearly, GE Arco is supposed to be a magical powerhouse. Their units suffer by comparison.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

[quantum_mechani]

I don't find GA Arco a weak theme overall, but I agree the wind rider needs something like awe to make it worth it.

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

[Blitz]

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher? In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could. Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?

1) Added protection, which becomes redundant once you research alteration 1.
2) Lowered Encumbrance to 3, which is 3 more than undeads have.
3) Boosted dominion to 4, which is the same as the Dagon, Divine Serpant, Lich Queen, and Virtue.
4) Significantly raised defense value.

If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King, I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap.

1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots.
2) It costs 0 points, not 125
3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.
4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.

Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community!

[Scott Hebert]

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

Well, the Shedu isn't good late-game, but what nonhumanoid Pretender is?

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

The Shedu is not part of the problem here.

[Blitz]

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them...

Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered. I chose to focus on the wind riders, as they were the theme's signature unit, and a solution like awe seemed like a good fit. Awe is an incredibly powerful ability against independant troops, although it's usefulness against enemy elite troopers or mindless creations is somewhat lessened. I have a lot of experience with awe, as the Virtue is often my pretender of choice. I have a suspicion that awe +1 may be too high and it will have to be lowered to +0, but time will tell.

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

Actually the Shedu hits 100 fatigue after about 10 tramples and dies from exhaustion, regardless of his hit points. This is not apparent from looking at his stats, but if you think you can use him like a Wurm out of the box you are sadly mistaken.

Honestly the Shedu mod was an afterthought. I wouldn't use the "new" Shedu either, and I'm temped to just remove him so we can focus on the more important units in the wind rider and myrmidon.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]