Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Scott Hebert]

Um, yikes. I think you guys have missed the point of GE Arco.

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

They lose the Astrologer, they gain the Philosopher. Both capital-only, with different foci. Oh, yes, they're not THAT much better than Sages... but no one gets Sages, do they? They're _clearly_ the best researchers in the game. No, they're not much good for anything but researching, but it's not like they'll be doing anything else.

They also have better access to Crystal Coins, so the loss of the Astrologer isn't so bad.

Clearly, GE Arco is supposed to be a magical powerhouse. Their units suffer by comparison.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

[quantum_mechani]

I don't find GA Arco a weak theme overall, but I agree the wind rider needs something like awe to make it worth it.

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

[Blitz]

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher? In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could. Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?

1) Added protection, which becomes redundant once you research alteration 1.
2) Lowered Encumbrance to 3, which is 3 more than undeads have.
3) Boosted dominion to 4, which is the same as the Dagon, Divine Serpant, Lich Queen, and Virtue.
4) Significantly raised defense value.

If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King, I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap.

1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots.
2) It costs 0 points, not 125
3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.
4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.

Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community!

[Scott Hebert]

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

Well, the Shedu isn't good late-game, but what nonhumanoid Pretender is?

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

The Shedu is not part of the problem here.

[Blitz]

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them...

Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered. I chose to focus on the wind riders, as they were the theme's signature unit, and a solution like awe seemed like a good fit. Awe is an incredibly powerful ability against independant troops, although it's usefulness against enemy elite troopers or mindless creations is somewhat lessened. I have a lot of experience with awe, as the Virtue is often my pretender of choice. I have a suspicion that awe +1 may be too high and it will have to be lowered to +0, but time will tell.

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

Actually the Shedu hits 100 fatigue after about 10 tramples and dies from exhaustion, regardless of his hit points. This is not apparent from looking at his stats, but if you think you can use him like a Wurm out of the box you are sadly mistaken.

Honestly the Shedu mod was an afterthought. I wouldn't use the "new" Shedu either, and I'm temped to just remove him so we can focus on the more important units in the wind rider and myrmidon.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

Heh. This is laughable. "Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights. Maybe in your experience they don't, but in my experience playing GE in MP they do.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

You do know there is a "Attack Cavalry" command right?

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered.

Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Blitz]

Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants

Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.

"Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights

And those 5 knights buffed by Inquisitors? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where chariots charge free into any decent MP player's backfield without first meeting some kind of mounted reistance.