MP Research strategy help

[Schmoe]

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Well my first priority is get some Earth weenie making Dwarven hammers. Then I have a dedicated forger for each school of magic. So within the first 20 turns I have at least 1 quill and 1 lantern being made every turn. It's slow but eventually everyone is upgraded and researching.

So my fire guy and air guy, cranking out quills and lanterns, each equiped with a hammer, use less gems to make the goods. Capiche?

So you plunk down 40 Earth gems in the first 20 turns for a chance to save 1 air gem on each quill and 1 fire gem on each lantern? So in 20 more turns you have recouped your cost, after spending a total of 80 air, 80 fire, and 40 earth. It shifts the cost around a bit, but it still doesn't get around the fact that it's a huge investment of gems. I guess maybe I'm not site-searching effectively, but I rarely seem to have the sort of gem income to support those costs.

[En Forcer]

Mmmm....a little different than that.

1st forging = 1 dwarven hammer 20 earth gems
2nd forging = 1 dwarven hammer at 15 earth gems
(earth weenie gets 1st hammer so all stuff is now 25% off)

The quill drops to 3 air gems I think?

But the lantern drops from 10 fire to 7.

I TRY to get a dwarven hammer built first...but if I start a game and don't have a bunch of earth gems then obviously I pay full price.

Mind you, I don't statistically track gem usage or effeciency. There are better ways to do this. But during all this I'm probably fighting a 2 front war and using up huge amounts of gold on troops (and believe me I alchemy A LOT).

So that's pretty much it....

[Cohen]

I'd never forge Quills, since 3 ResPoints are too few for 5 Air Gems.

Skull Mentors are good only for certain Nations, while Fireless Lanterns are very good.

Usually many players goes for Magic Scale too, that is a far better enhancment than forging research items.

In a long stand a bonus research for every mage will prove very useful, not to count that depending on Nation enemies fighting in your dominion will lose 1 point in MR (this is good especially against Undead Ermor, or if you count on mass Soul Slay or such things).

In the firsts turns try to get the best mages you can since you need to unleash your Pretender with spell buffs asap to get provinces (so more gold, to better mages).

[Inigo Montoya]

A Few Corrections...

Lightless Lantern: 5 Fire Gems, 3 with a Dwarven Hammer

Owl Quill: 5 Air Gems, 3 with a Dwarven Hammer

I'm with Cohen. Consider Magic 3 if you want to be a researching superpower.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Cohen:
I'd never forge Quills, since 3 ResPoints are too few for 5 Air Gems.

Skull Mentors are good only for certain Nations, while Fireless Lanterns are very good.

You're missing an important point: Quills are available at Construction 2, Lanterns are available at Constr 6. If you're in dire need for research boosters, I assume you probably picked a drain scale. Then you can still research Constr 2 in 5 turns or so, while researching Constr 6 may take you, say, 30 turns. In a game that Lasts 60 turns, a Quill you forged in turn 10 will net you 150 research points over time. A Lantern you forged in turn 35 will be worth 150 research points too. More, you get the Quill research bonus earlier, which is an advantage you shouldn't underestimate (think about it as a 'research integral', if you like maths).

[Tuna-Fish]

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Hmm...I wonder about Tuna's strategy. All those mages while great at research will soak you on upkeep.

To answer your question, I shoot for 10 dedicated researchers equiped with lanterns and quills by turn 30 or so.

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
With certain nations, like C'tis and Caelum, I try to recruit a mage every turn in every fort.
Some nations & strategies are just better equipped for researching than others.

This seems to be the point here. I use pretty much all the gold on mages and their upkeep because I think there is not really all that much other stuff that is worth more than them. I quess we all agree that 90 or 100 gold spent on Seithkorna or Seraph gives you more overall combat power than spending that in troops. After getting eagle eyes and nether darts, the Seithkorna can wipe out 9-10 normal troops with impunity even on the second round of combat, making it hugely more powerful.

Thus I believe that gold spent on troops gives you just some combat power, while gold spent on mages gives you some (less) immediate combat power, but also research, which gives huge amounts of potential combat power.

Now, with the Jotun utgard as an example: 1st case, I spend all my gold on troops, from turn one until I make contact. I get some decent expansion speed for the start, but next to no research. 2nd case: I get one seithkorna a turn, use excess gold on troops. With the starting troops and my pretender, I can take perhaps one indie province a turn, and also I'm racking up some research. When i meet th jotuns in the first example, I have gotten nether bolt and eagle eyes. When we meet, I use troops as a meat shield and do the combat with my mages, they get decimated. I meet the second opponent, who by now has a huge empire, but because my research increases by 8 every turn (magic scale is obviously integral to my strategy), I'll have nether darts and the second opponent will feel massive pain. With the huge research I have it'll be easy to pick important other spells like relief.

IMHO, the only thing you should care about early game is research and survival, because when you have enough research it guarantees your survival.

And, so that my jotun example isn't the only example, some other importnant research goals:

C'tis and Conj-9 (well of misery, ghost riders, legion of wights, get pretender with lots of death)
Caelum, Evo-6, Const-4, Ench-4 (Wrathful skies, staff of storms, cloud trapeze)
Pythium, Thau 4, alt 2, conj-4 (paralyse, quickness, light of the northern star)

All those stuff can be protected against with some research and/or effort, but the point is getting them so fast and hitting the enemy so early they simpy have no time for getting some protection.

[Cohen]

With Pythium I prefer go first Thau 5 for Soul Slaying.
Light of the Northern Star isn't so useful for Pythium as for other nations like Abysya, because Pyth has commies that in early game does pretty well, second, far better to use the Banner, you avoid fatigue and continual gem expenditure.

Quills are Const-2, yes, lanterns are Const-6, true.
But the 5 air gems I spend in the Quills could be used in more better ways. Yes if I take Drain-3 I could think on quills, but I doubt I'd take Drain scale anymore unless is mandatory by race or game settings.

With 5 Air Gems I can do cloud trapezes or a call of the wind (useful to try to grab an enemy province or to see exactly what an enemy army has inside and which spells are scripter in first one or two rounds), and if I mass gems I could do far more (mass seeking arrows, storm staves and helmets and so on).