Getting a blood economy going

[Tuna-Fish]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I suppose this is due to the value many players place on SC's. I guess they are the way to go and that troops are kind of useless.

Depends totally on what you are facing. While troops alone almost never (mandragoras spring to mind...) beat sc's, but troops and mages together can easily be as effective, or more, as the best sc's. The main difference is that the sc's are a lot more mobile, as it's lot easier to give out-of-battle flying to one unit than 100. But having a mage/troops spearhead taking out the nastiest sc's can be very worthwhile. The problem there ofc is that mages/troops are a lot more vulnerable to stuff like murdering winter etc.

When designing anti-sc mage group, you need 2 things.
1st, something to stop the sc from killing your expensive mages. This can be staff of storms, that slows down fliers long enough so the mage can do his thing, Enlivend statues or pale riders in large enough quantity that the sc can't beat them all too quick, or just wads of militia or crossbreed fodder with Will of the fates and mistform cast, assuming your killing squad isn't using anything hp-dependent.

2nd, something to kill the sc. This is usually a single mage casting some particularly nasty spell. This spell should not be resistable by the target's mr or any of the resistances the target has. Good examples range from drain life (because of the fatigue this causes to the target this is very good), banefire, solar rays (as a plus nothing upsets your oppenent more than getting his best and finest killed by massed castings of lowly solar rays...), stellar cascades, and my personal favourite, Petrify, whose paralysation cannot be resisted.

(edit)some spelling fixes(/edit)

[ July 11, 2004, 17:51: Message edited by: Tuna-Fish ]

[Huzurdaddi]

Tuna-Fish,

I guess you are right. In the current game I am playing I should keep my 3 largism mage backed armies around. They do have a use ( even though they cost an arm and a leg in maintance ).

But as the game goes on ( it's like turn 40 I think ). I *really* have to start relying upon summons, and by summons I mean super combatants.

Still I would have thought that adding 25 or so devils to a SC would be a good thing! Wish I could do it, but man my blood hunting is going cruddy! I would have loved to turn my entire economy into blood but it is proving very hard to accomplish.

[Boron]

i haven't seen a real sc yet since i am only at ~turn 10 in all my mp games which are my first ones

but as Huzurdaddi i always liked "normal" summons like devils , ghosts ....

so are there any summons which can defeat even very well equipped sc's ?

like a horde of devils , ghosts , wights ?
or a horde of vampires ?

[SelfishGene]

The most nearly broken site in the game is the Circle of Blood - well, or something like that. It gives a free lab and access to 2 blood/2 death mages for a mere 100 gold. Is there any better mage per cost in the game? Although ive only found it once, id go so far as to say whomever found that in multi would would be the favorite to win.

[Sheap]

Here are my thoughts:

I think there are three ways you can approach blood. This is because blood magic is all segregated out into its own path. Using blood incurs a large research overhead! Therefore if you are not a strong blood nation you probably do not want to bother with blood research unless you really haven't anything else to do. Therefore, either you are a real blood nation, you are using blood only to forge, or you are not using blood at all. Which pretenders/nations/themes are best used in each role is left as an exercise for the reader

I like the Soul Contract, although its value is greatly reduced if you haven't got a Dwarven Hammer. A handful of devils are just strong flying units, but a horde of them can be devastating. If you are a real blood nation, you can conjure up a Horde from Hell and use the devil commander to lead the devils that the Soul Contract produces. Otherwise just use any undead leader. Personally I prefer to put the Soul Contract on a stealthy unit and send it along with the group. That way you don't have to worry about losing your income of devils if you happen to lose a battle somewhere along the way.

A horde of vampires MIGHT have a chance of killing a non-undead SC because of their undead/life drain combo. On the other hand, ethereal units have difficulty engaging SCs because they all have magic weapons. The SC will kill one vampire per attack unless by some miracle he misses. So you are looking at losing 4-6 vampires every round. You'd need a whole bunch and you are going to win by fatigue, not by outfighting the SC. If you are fighting in friendly dominion, of course, you don't have much risk with this approach.

Ghosts - mostly useful because of ethereal and fear - neither works against SCs.

Devils - maybe. Devils are expensive to throw away in this fashion, even if you have soul contracts. Devils are part of this complete breakfast.

Wights I prefer to use as "shock troops" since they have excellent (though not mindless) morale, good protection, and bane blades. Unless you can cast Legion of Wights, they are too expensive to produce in "horde" quantities. The trouble is they don't fly and are exceptionally slow so the SC will get to pick and choose who to attack. He will probably attack the commander. Although you might look at a bunch of normal wights as a way of increasing the effectiveness of a Bane Lord SC, by giving him extra distraction and firepower.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Sheap:
So you are looking at losing 4-6 vampires every round. You'd need a whole bunch and you are going to win by fatigue, not by outfighting the SC. If you are fighting in friendly dominion, of course, you don't have much risk with this approach.

Meh. If you're a blood nation, you can easily drive enemy dominion before you with the power of Blood Sacrifice, insuring that your vampires will always be able to fight in friendly dominion, and thus are immortal. Very few SCs hold up well against a Mile Wide Mass Of Vampires. In addition, the Vampire Lords themselves are formidable SCs and can very well attempt going toe-to-toe against the opponent.

Devils - maybe. Devils are expensive to throw away in this fashion, even if you have soul contracts. Devils are part of this complete breakfast.

Devils can be very effective at mauling many types of SCs, due to their innate high attack Ratings and ability to fly. They're also easy to replace, especially if you have soul contracts, which means you can easily be generating dozens, or even as many as a hundred, devils per turn.

Their heat auras have also been known to induce combustion, and fatigue....even on things which seems to be fireimmune, although this part is unconfirmed.

[Boron]

thnx sheap and norfleet.
so if you don't want to go heavy on sc's yourself heavy blood with hordes of vampires seems to be a good choice and/or mages with life drain , petrify and so on.

how do sc's do against abominations ?

are there any other good ways to defeat sc's expect making your own sc's or the above described solutions ?