OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely

[Arryn]

Dom 2 is actually one of the best non-historical strategy games playable in SP. It is certainly better than any of its competitors in the genre (AoW, etc.).

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Pickles:
'Cos Dom 2 is terrible SP and MOM wasn't?
(this may be 10 years and a general disatisfaction with SP talking. I do remember longing to play MOM MP.)

I would tend to agree. Not that I consider it a major "broke" thing since Dom2 is meant to be a multiplayer game. Its pretty good SoloPlay for being an MP game. I think MoM was a great SoloPlay game, and would make a terrible multiplayer game. I certainly hope that MoM2 just recreates MoM without trying to add that.

Now if they tried a MoM3, and could possibly figure out how to do MP balance the way Dom2 does, then MAYBE they can achieve a game that does both fairly well. But rather than mess it up Id rather have both. Dom2 for MP, and MoM2 for SP.

[ July 23, 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Pickles]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
"I think MoM was a great SoloPlay game, and would make a terrible multiplayer game. I certainly hope that MoM2 just recreates MoM without trying to add that."

MP games need simpler core mechanics and fewer turns to complete than SP games IMO. Dom is of course fiendishly complex but the core movement system is simple, there are no alliance rules, and economic admin is straightforward. until mass forging comes along.

I am unsure what I want in MOM2. I would be happy with the same game pretty much revamped to 2005 standards. Or a MP game that had the feel of the original. But a bastard offspring that did both poorly would be very sad.


In reply to Arryn. Obviously we have different opinions as I cannot be bothered with dom SP - I sandbox a bit to test but that's it. The other games must be truly dire (I tried AoW and it was)

Pickles

[ July 23, 2004, 15:12: Message edited by: Pickles ]

[Kel]

I wouldn't want them to alter the gameplay significantly to make it MP but if they added MP as an afterthought, without changing SP, I wouldn't mind. It wouldn't be great MP, battles would probably have to be computer run, but as long as it didn't affect SP, it would just be a bonus (like the hotseat MP shell was).

- Kel

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Pickles:
The other games must be truly dire (I tried AoW and it was)

I think you've understood my point.

Gandalf's comment about Dom 2 being "good" in SP for a game that's intended to be played MP is spot on. AoW and its ilk spent too much money on coding graphics and not enough on AI. But AI coding is hard work, and graphics is pretty straightforward (given today's toolkits). Warlords 3 had decent AI (not great, just decent). But that (and AoW) are simpler games than Dom 2. Being simpler makes it all the more annoying that a game has an inferior AI. With all the many flaws the Dom 2 AI has, it's still decent enough to whip the stuffing out of noobs, and there aren't many games I know of that can do that.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Kel:
I wouldn't want them to alter the gameplay significantly to make it MP but if they added MP as an afterthought, without changing SP, I wouldn't mind. It wouldn't be great MP, battles would probably have to be computer run, but as long as it didn't affect SP, it would just be a bonus (like the hotseat MP shell was).

Actually there was an addon program that let you play MoM multiplayer. Well hotseat. It worked pretty well but tended to show why MP didnt work well in MoM.

Its very hard for MP and SP to share a game. I loved things in MoM like maybe starting off with a great resource inside my capital cities zone. Or the irritation of having a big lair next to me which I know is going to start tossing wandering units out before I can take it. Or the difference between one hero showing up (YAY!) or another (not worth the money).

In MP those are all "unfair". Multiplayer games dont want things to be decided by random events instead of by player actions. They want fair and equal maps and starting positions. They want interesting events but not majorly plus or minus to the player. They want no chance that someone will end up starting so fantastically, or so horribly, that you quit and generate a new game for a more playable start.

Im not saying any of that is bad. Its just that a game pretty much has to decide ahead of time if design decisions are going to be in favor of good MP play or in favor of good SP play when they seem to conflict. Or, which is even worse, a middle-of-the-road little-bit-good for both. Its very hard to do either MP or SP well. Its VERY hard to do them both well. Dom2 and Space Empires IV (both Shrapnel games) are the closest Ive seen in my decades of playing games. I just want my MoM back. Then they can mess with it.

[Pickles]

Originally posted by Arryn:
" With all the many flaws the Dom 2 AI has, it's still decent enough to whip the stuffing out of noobs, and there aren't many games I know of that can do that."

It seems to do it by ganging up on you rather than by out playing you though. The thing is an exercise in frustration chasing down random attacks.

To reply to Gandalf about randomness - I consider dom 2 to be too random for a serious MP game really. eg my first MP game I lost 1/4 of my population turn one with + luck and a lucky pretender - half my net income.
The fun of the process of teh game though makes this bearable - you are only really likely to be screwed in the firt half dozen turns which is not much of a commitment for a quick defeat!

Pickles