OT - your fav games

[Vicious Love]

'scuse the delayed response, but what giveth?

Originally posted by Arryn:
I also forgot to give honorable mentions to:

* Vampire:Redemption (FRPG; biggest flaw was linear plot, same problem Return to Krondor had; first decently-done conVersion of a pen&paper FRPG into a CRPG, and with GM capabilities)

The game was an atrocity. Firstly, "linear plot" is an understatement. The game was Diablo with more cutscenes. Dialogue options, when present, were either completely meaningless, or affected your Humanity stat, and nothing else(Save in one occasion near the endgame, where you also got the chance to learn the Serpentis discipline. Woohoo.)
The one time I actually got the chance to try and think things through, instead of killing everything on the map and then letting the "plot" run itself for me, was when I checked Pink's aura, right after he joined my party. I guess the aura-reading Discipline was thrown in as kind of an afterthought, because although Pink's one-word description was "diabolist", which is pretty much interchangeable with "traitorous bastard", there was absolutely nothing I could do to act upon this knowledge. Three or four dungeons full of identical vampires and ghouls later, Pink betrayed me, and I had to act all shocked and awed.
Your party members couldn't even die, and stunned party members were miraculously resurrected every time they had a part to play in a prescripted conversation, only to pass out again.
Furthermore, for a game in which combat(And the infrequent and nigh-inconsequential dialogue option) is the ONLY interactive element, you'd think they coulda made battle remotely interesting.
As for the whole "decently done conVersion" thingie, I'm at a loss for words. Pretty much the only element of P&P V:tM which made the transition intact was also it's worst feature: Unadulterated, hackneyed, melodramatic, and thoroughly ludicrous angst. The fact that this cesspool of Goth isn't even tempered with a shred of realism makes the whole thing ridiculous.
"Alas", sez Christof, "I am cursed to feast on the blood of the living". Christof then proceeds to attack one of the FOUR, count 'em, FOUR humans(Other than guards, vendors, and the three plot-related NPCs) in Prague. A guard halfway across the map becomes instantaneously aware of this, rushes over, shouting "Halt! Halt! Halt!" all the while, and starts swinging at the feeding Christof. His fourth blow connects, so Christof uses Presence level two on him, and starts feeding off him, which calls in another "Halten sie!" shouting guard.
Deciding that being "Cursed to feast on the blood of the living"(Oh, the pain of it all) isn't worth the effort, Christof leaves the zone, automatically shaking off pursuit, and attacks a convenient stack of casks and barrels, the ammo crates of the Dark Ages. After handily dispatching the barrels(Shouting "To the abyss with thee!" with every fourth swing), he examines the contents, and finds a low-level magic scroll, some gold, and a vial of blood. How convenient. Of course, people don't REALLY leave wee little bottles of blood lying around in barrels. In the earlier portion of the game, when Christof was still human, those barrels all contained healing potions(Yes, HEALING POTIONS. Hello, dark, broody realism). I assume it's the sheer force of vamp-Christof's angst that transmutes those healing potions into blood.
The effort the developers put into trying to justify taking the player from one massacre to another was simply pitiful. Honestly, you FedEX the Nosferatu some of ze bludde, he agrees to let you into the tunnels to the next zone, but warns that the remainder of his clan might not be so hospitable. FOR NO REASON, you are attacked by at least FOURTY vampires, some of them guarding levers or treasure chests(A few of them in what appears to be the legendary FOUR BY FOUR ROOM WITH A CHEST IN THE MIDDLE. I kid you not). There are only three kinds of Nosferatu in both levels of that dungeon. Three models. Three sets of textures. Three sets of stats. And one of them is a unique sub-boss. He's just like the other Nosferatu, in that he has no lines and just attacks you for no conceivable reason, but he has a magic sword and better stats.
This sort of scene repeats itself about a dozen times, and then the game ends in one of three ways, depending on your Humanity stat. Please do note that in several of the semi-random massacres, you slaughter humans, not vampires. "Alas, I am cursed not to give a damn about generic goon humans, though generic prey humans are off limits. Not that I need to feed off them, or anything, since there are roughly 5,000 blood points per zone lying around in wineskins and vials for no apparent reason, and the gypsy has an unlimited supply for sale, though I should probably save up for better magic armor and a few 'identify' scrolls, instead".
Early on in the game, there's a glimmer of false hope. You've just completed your first utterly pointless dungeon crawl, as a human. You've been vamped, you've had a bunch of prescripted conversations which positively OOZED junior high school level poetry and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle English, abridged Version", and you're told you must secretly, DISCREETLY retrieve a fragment of the Book of Nod(TM) from a nearby vampire monastery. So, what's V:tM:R's take on stealth-based gameplay. Walking right in and mowing down another fourty or so vampires. One scene after the massacre, the head of the monastery has forgiven and forgotten everything, and even lets one of his favorite vampires, the one with the phone-sex feeding sound effects, join your party. I mean, sure, you did eliminate a traitor from his clan's midst, but you'd think he'd have a problem with your methods. Fourty. Vampires. On a cover operation.
As for multiplayer, the GM capabilities were a nice concept, definitely one long overdue, at any rate, but they were also completely and utterly unworkable. The interface was a hate crime against the geek ethnicity, and even if you managed to get everything working properly, it couldn't even begin to compare to a MUSH or pen & paper game.

I hope that came out coherent, I'm definitely not at my best at the moment. So. Very. Tired.

Update: Just to drive the point home, for anyone familiar with P&P V:tM, here are some of the generic goons you get to fight. There are somewhere between thirty and fifty or so per dungeon, by my estimate, and some appear in multiple dungeons. Most come in only one variety(One model, one set of textures, one set of stats), though a few come in two, not counting bosses and sub-bosses.
1) Teutonic knights, in what appears to be a really bad historian's conception of full Gothic plate. Just walking around their perfectly secure stronghold and patrolling the city streets in FULL GOTHIC PLATE. Which, like pretty much everything else carried by goons, cannot be looted. Keep in mind there are about fourty of these bastards on one map. Some of them say "Halt!".
2) Nosferatu
3) Shadowy Lasombra goon-things
4) Szlachta
5) Tremere
6) Gargoyles
7) Ventrue.
8) VENTRUE, for shag's sake! DOZENS OF IDENTICAL VENTRUE GOONS! VENTRUE! GOONS! VENTRUE GOONS!
9) MY BRAIN IS SWELLING!

Updated update: In the game's defense, the opening cutscene was awesome. Everything else sucked. I know some people didn't like how Gordon Freeman had no lines, but I know most people wouldn't have wanted his every other line to be "Forsooth! I am forsook, prithee, by God, sure'n, yea, verily, and alas, anon. Oh, deceitful mendacity, how your falsehoods deceive me! But such is my fate, for I am damned, yea, damned, I verily say unto thee, thou Lion of Zion. I hereby now go at present, to return only with this bladed sword plus four of which you speak, else damned be I, though damned I be, for such is the lot of the damned."

[ July 19, 2004, 21:55: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

[djtool]

NWN is not a persistent world, nor is it an MMO. [/QB]

the product in the box may not be a PW, but there are PW's out there and some very nice ones at that.

As far as being a MMO is concerned...well i suppose that depends on how many people you think it takes to be considered massive.

however if they promised it to be as good a story as BG1 and 2...well they must have been high. No way that came close.

[ July 19, 2004, 22:02: Message edited by: djtool ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
The game was an atrocity.

Please, don't hold back on how you really feel about it.

As for the whole "decently done conVersion" thingie, I'm at a loss for words.

Given the length of your response, methinks not.

Pretty much the only element of P&P V:tM which made the transition intact

Guess you missed the interviews with the CRPG's designers on why things were done as they were. Or the interviews with the designers of the forthcoming Vampire Bloodlines, on what they thought of the earlier game, and what they're doing for the new one. I can see why you'd be disappointed, if you don't understand why they couldn't convert the WW rules more closely than they did. My advice is to avoid getting Bloodlines, because you'll likely be upset all over again.

I hope that came out coherent, I'm definitely not at my best at the moment. So. Very. Tired.

9) MY BRAIN IS SWELLING!

Coherent, yes. Ranting and frothing at the mouth too.

What you disliked about the game (except for the Ventrue goons, which really spoils the whole thing for those familiar with the WW pen&paper game) I could say about many other popular CRPGs. Bear in mind that it's a CRPG, and as such still has to appeal to the mass audience. The sort of roleplayers that love WW are a much smaller niche market than what the CRPG was targeting. So, yes, the game is over the top (another understatement) in many places, and has many many "theatrical" flaws. But I give it credit for allowing, like NWN has done, GMs to create their own (and better) modules and be able to play with people who aren't able to sit across a table from them. It also further popularized the pen&paper game, which doesn't hurt. And, despite its flaws, the game was fun to play. Perhaps not for you, but for myself and thousands of others it was.

[Vicious Love]

Point taken. Nonetheless, I expect a V:tM game to be more like Fallout than Diablo. I LIKE Diablo, because it doesn't pretend to be not-Diablo.
The whole point of V:tM is that it is the anti-AD&D. Dungeon crawls, healing potions, and legions of identical foes there only for the XP are anathema to White Wolf. Right from the outset, White Wolf games were there so elitist geeks could act like they're better than run-off-the-mill hack & slashers, all the while shamelessly indulging in one the oldest adolescent power fantasies in the book.
It's like that Will Smith opus, "I, Robot". It might turn out to be a downright awesome action movie. The effects might be truly spectacular. And Asimov's grave is still doing 300 or so RPM. If they'da called it "Sassy MegaDetroit Cop Versus the Killicator-Robot HyperNation", I'd probably watch it. Ditto for V:tM:R, but replace "Robot" with "Vampire" and "Sassy MegaDetroit Cop" with "Vampire".

Why am I not asleep yet? Stupid King of Dragon Pass demo. Download faster!

Update: Besides which, if Vampire fans are such a tiny niche demographic, why make a Vampire game at all?
I mean, Chessmaster 2000 mighta sold better if there were more explosions, but people looking for explosion-based entertainment generally get turned off by words like "Chess" and "master", as well as numbers above 7. Not that I actually play chess, or anything. Not nearly enough headshots.
Anyway, Bloodlines is going to kick. Silence your inappropriate-comparison making word hole. I'll be in my denial room.

[ July 19, 2004, 22:44: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

[Kel]

Though none of htem are likely to make my top 10, I thought Vampire was a decent CRPG, I thought NWN was a decent CRPG and I plan to see I, Robot

- Kel

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Asimov's grave is still doing 300 or so RPM.

Without a doubt. I've yet to see it, but I expect that "I, Robot" will bear about as much resemblence to something that Asimov would've approved of as Starship Troopers bore any resemblence to Heinlein's book of same name (besides having something called "bugs").

[Arryn]

UPDATE: Having seen "I, Robot" this evening, I have to say that while Asimov would not have approved of the script (I can go into the reasons why if anyone really cares), the movie wasn't bad, and was a helluva lot closer to Asimov's "universe" than "Starship Troopers" was to Heinlein's. Go see the movie and enjoy it (ignoring the impossible physics of the bots will help).