Gem use question.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Arryn:
I've had unoccupied castles captured instantly by small numbers of enemy troops that would otherwise have taken several turns to break down the walls (I know this because that same raiding enemy group later laid siege to a neighboring castle). Which is why I no longer leave my castles undefended. Ever. Regardless of what the rules say.

I'm with Arryn here - I've seen castles taken without a fight when there was no one inside. Frankly, it makes sense - if there aren't any soldiers inside, it doesn't take a month to climb over the walls.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
I'm with Arryn here - I've seen castles taken without a fight when there was no one inside. Frankly, it makes sense - if there aren't any soldiers inside, it doesn't take a month to climb over the walls.

Except that it doesn't occur that way in my tests, and hasn't ever occurred that way in any game I've played. Build a castle, leave the province when its finished, and have the other nation invade a turn later. You'll be breaking down the walls, but still have to exceed the defense.

What may have happened in the cases where you saw the castle fall immediately is that your opponent brought along scouts or other stealthy unit with a gate cleaver or horn of bLasting. If you were playing against Vanheim or Tuatha, then you wouldn't have seen all of their troops anyways. You don't receive precise intelligence on the forces outside of your castle, so it's fairly easy to have siegers that only come out from hiding till the walls fall, then leave to go somewhere else.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Except that it doesn't occur that way in my tests

Perhaps your tests weren't exhaustive enough. Stuff manages to slip past IW's own testing. No one's perfect.

What may have happened in the cases where you saw the castle fall immediately is that your opponent brought along scouts or other stealthy unit with a gate cleaver or horn of bLasting.

As I posted before, if such was the case, the second castle would have fallen quickly too, yet it didn't. The unoccupied castle falling had nothing whatsoever to do with what was in the raiding force. Which was from Pythium IIRC.

If you were playing against Vanheim or Tuatha, then you wouldn't have seen all of their troops anyways.

All fine and dandy except there was no Vanheim in that game, and Man was the base theme.

Why is it so hard to accept that there may be an intermittent bug? It wouldn't be the only one that this game has had. I could see people dismissing the idea out of hand if I was the only one reporting it, especially since I have no save games to prove it. But I'm not alone (thanks to Cainehill stepping forward).

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Perhaps your tests weren't exhaustive enough.

That's possible, though I'm not sure what would be the best way to run more tests.

As I posted before, if such was the case, the second castle would have fallen quickly too, yet it didn't. The unoccupied castle falling had nothing whatsoever to do with what was in the raiding force. Which was from Pythium IIRC.

Well, it's still possible, though unlikely, that the breaching commanders went to a different province. What type of fortress were you using?

All fine and dandy except there was no Vanheim in that game, and Man was the base theme.

That's good then, since their lack gets rid of a whole bunch of factors.

Why is it so hard to accept that there may be an intermittent bug?

It's not that hard to accept. I'm simply trying to eliminate all other factors that could be causing the problem.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That's possible, though I'm not sure what would be the best way to run more tests.

If I had thoughts on the matter, I'd mention them. This sort of bug is a real pain to try to track down.

What type of fortress were you using?

Castle.

I'm simply trying to eliminate all other factors that could be causing the problem.

My gut feeling is that it's something real subtle buried in the code. It's what usually happens when something works right 99% of the time, but not a full 100%.

I do appreciate you and Zen pointing out all the "normal" ways to cause undefended keeps to quickly fall. heh It make me that much more desirous of maintaining some sort of garrison at keeps that might be at risk.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Except that it doesn't occur that way in my tests, and hasn't ever occurred that way in any game I've played. Build a castle, leave the province when its finished, and have the other nation invade a turn later. You'll be breaking down the walls, but still have to exceed the defense.

What may have happened in the cases where you saw the castle fall immediately is that your opponent brought along scouts or other stealthy unit with a gate cleaver or horn of bLasting. If you were playing against Vanheim or Tuatha, then you wouldn't have seen all of their troops anyways. You don't receive precise intelligence on the forces outside of your castle, so it's fairly easy to have siegers that only come out from hiding till the walls fall, then leave to go somewhere else.

Eh, I'd still have troops on the outside of the castle one turn, inside it the next. This was - province and castle are owned by one side. Next turn - the province and castle are owned by the enemy.

Obviously, no message about walls being damaged or breached.

I'm not sure, but I think it was situations where there was no troops defending, period. None inside the fortification, none outside, possibly not even any PD. Army moves into the province, snatches the fortification.

I think I've even done it a time or two.