OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Yes, healthcare costs a lot, but it costs a lot regardless of whether the government collects taxes to pay for it, or the people pay for it individually.

This may be the case, but paying for your healthcare individually does have one very large benefit, especially because health care costs a lot: If you are healthy, you don't need any!

As opposed to the Canadian system, where you end up paying for somebody ELSE's problems. If it's not contagious, it's not my problem!

And the real reason health care costs so much *IS* because of things like "health insurance": It abstracts the payment for healthcare from the individual, who likely doesn't have that much money, and therefore, one cannot charge more than the typical customer can afford to pay, to a monolithic corporate or government entity with loose accountability and nearly bottomless pockets. There's a REASON why the government seems to pay so ridiculously much for things: because nobody really cares. To the average man on the street, what the government or a corporation spends on something is a statistic with little or no personal impact on him. When I was young, buying "health insurance" was something you had to do if you lived in an area with a strong mob presence.

Insurance is a big sham: How else would it even be profitable, unless they were obviously charging you more than they were paying out? Unless the Mafia is trying to sell you insurance, don't bother. Keep your money, it'll do you more good in your hands than someone else's.

The fact of the matter is that the healthcare system in both countries sucks in the same way for different reasons. In Canada, it's government-funded healthcare. Everyone gets it, including people who rightly couldn't afford it, and therefore don't really need it, and as a result, in some places, it can be too crowded with people getting unnecessary treatment. In the US, it's because of insurance companies and frivolous lawsuits, which has jacked up costs to the point where people who SHOULD be able to afford it, CAN'T anymore. The system sucks. Pick your flavor of suckage.

[NTJedi]

Even more importantly is John Kerry is going against his catholic religion which is a serious moral issue.
John Kerry is unapologetically pro-abortion... yet as a Catholic, he is required to be personally opposed to the idea.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Higher Taxes is the point ! Many citizens as myself have a tough time making our house & utilities payments where we can't afford to give another $250.oo for some new healthcare plan which covers everyone in the USA. Why should we pay higher taxes for more government intervention.

Most modern health care systems spend either less per person, or the same amount per person as the U.S. system, and achieve much better results. (The U.S. is 38th in the world for quality of health care.) While your taxes will increase to pay for a public health care system, your overall cost will only increase if you never contract a serious illness in your life.

Let us as citizens pay for healthcare when we need the care.

And if you can't afford to pay, then we should just let you rot?

Not all hospitals are the same... and without a doubt the waiting time would increase no matter where you are.

Do you have any evidence that the waiting time would increase? Since I doubt that you do, you can hardly say that it's "without a doubt".

[Skolem]

As you are discussing this topics, can I ask the americans of this bord, a single thing: I never understand why things that are organized by the state are such a terrible thing?
As a society it is normal to help others when you aren't in need, as they will help you if you are, thats one of the most basic idea, and health or education belongs to this, why should someone not receive any help in such thing just because he hadn't the money? Sure they may be some who would profite of this but there aren't the majority, AND there are the others who had no chance in life, why punish them?
I never understand this point of view, but maybe it's just that I am a foolish european
Skolem

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
This may be the case, but paying for your healthcare individually does have one very large benefit, especially because health care costs a lot: If you are healthy, you don't need any!

Can you show me that a sizable portion of the population will remain healthy for their entire life?

In Canada, it's government-funded healthcare. Everyone gets it, including people who rightly couldn't afford it, and therefore don't really need it, and as a result, in some places, it can be too crowded with people getting unnecessary treatment.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard you say. Do you seriously believe that a heart attack patient doesn't need treatment because they don't have tens of thousands of dollars in cash?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Can you show me that a sizable portion of the population will remain healthy for their entire life?

Nope. Nobody remains healthy their entire lives. That's why people die, you see? Living forever is incredibly boring, anyway.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard you say. Do you seriously believe that a heart attack patient doesn't need treatment because they don't have tens of thousands of dollars in cash?

Well, excuse me if I don't come from the new, modern "must have it even if I can't afford it" culture that Zen informs me is increasingly pervasive. In *MY* day, if you couldn't afford something, you got a nice lesson in something we called "Learning To Do Without". Hell, in my day, people had heart attacks just *DIED* most of the time, even if you did try to blow a wad of cash on treatment. So you'll understand if I'm skeptical that somebody really *NEEDS* these things. We didn't have them in my day, and people managed anyway! Funny, how that works, yes? Sure, some of them died, but as you can clearly see, we managed. You're just spoiled and squeamish. Learn to accept that death is a natural part of life, and when stuff like this happens that you, obviously, couldn't be bothered to prepare for, you obviously didn't think it was important to do so, so you accept the consequences. What happened to personal responsibility? It's quite simple: If you can't be bothered to prepare for these things, you deserve it. If none of your friends will help you either, obviously, you're not important enough to the world, or even yourself, that somebody else should be shouldering what should have been YOUR responsibility. Learn to accept the consequences of your actions and inactions. Maybe if you hadn't blown all your cash on some useless doohickey or a new car, you wouldn't be too broke to afford medical treatment.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
While your taxes will increase to pay for a public health care system, your overall cost will only increase if you never contract a serious illness in your life.

That's wrong... take a look at how much switzerland is paying for this government healthcare. Another bad reason for government healthcare is we would never be able to go back.

quote:

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Let us as citizens pay for healthcare when we need the care.

And if you can't afford to pay, then we should just let you rot?

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So what you're suggesting is why just stop at U.S citizens?? Lets provide a Universal HealthCare for all countries including illegal aliens within our own. We can't just let them rot either... right?

Do you have any evidence that the waiting time would increase? Since I doubt that you do, you can hardly say that it's "without a doubt".

Lets see... there are millions without any healthcare which would be going to the hospitals if they could... whether or not its needed.
Currently X amount of people are going to the hospitals everyday.
With a government healthcare it would be X amount of people going to the hospitals PLUS Y amount of people also going which couldn't afford this before. Less beds/rooms available... less medical supplies... because of Y amount of people also going.

Example=
Will people start giving more blood with the new healthcare system to help provide the supplies needed for Y amount of people?? Take a guess!