OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Rather like some people might think that alcohol is immoral, but wouldn't choose to outlaw it for all people.

Actually, they tried that. It actually managed to become a constitutional amendment. Scary. Eventually it was repealed for being an awful idea.

Would you want a vegan, on the basis of hir personal morality, outlawing meat?

That'd be awful. I'd start my own resistance movement right there. I mean, no meat? We'd all starve and die horribly of malnutrition.

Even though I do think there's something morally wrong, or at least logically lacking, in the thought that "All life is sacred, except animals". We _are_ animals, mammals. It's hard to morally justify killing cows, lambs, rabbits, and ducks as being any better than killing and eating cats, dogs, dolphins, and human beings.

You can quickly reach logical coherency by discarding this premise as false. Graeme, however, would likely call me a horrible person for saying such a thing, as if I was some sort of serial killer or mass-murderer merely because I have logically discarded an internally inconsistent belief.

Certainly I think the animals dying in terror and fear, and even worse, living in pain and misery is morally unjustified, by any standard that a "pro-lifer" could propound.

You mean like the people who oppose the right to die? There are people out there, trying to tell you that you're not allowed to die. In fact, they've managed to make it illegal to do so in many places! Fortunately, if you actually succeed, you'll be too dead to be brought to trial, so nobody really takes this one seriously.

Why is a fetus's life worth more than a dogs? Why is it okay to abort a child if it is the product of rape? Or if the mother's life is endangered? The _BABY_ didn't rape anyone; the baby's life isn't worth less than the mothers.

Well, you could keep asking "why", but the logical answer is simply "It isn't."

Not to mention his hypocrisy - "People who do drugs should have their lives ruined - unless they're me, or another politically connected SOB, in which case DUIs and cocaine busts can be swept under the carpet."

Meh, drugs. Didn't they learn that this didn't work back in the 20s? It's deja vu all over again.

[Huzurdaddi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I guess you have never tried both services personally. They are not at all comparable. Canadian health care sucks.

No, it really doesn't "suck". If you'd look at the most basic of statistics, you'd see that our mortality statistics are comparable or better than that of the U.S.

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No it SUCKS. Canada has the benefit of having a 2-tier health system. If you can afford it you go to the US. If you can not you get treated in Canada. No one with a right head and sufficient capital and the time will pick a location for treatment will stay in Canada for any important medical procedure. I would not mind getting my scraped knee taken care of in Canada but any serious procedure I would want done in the US.

Seriously every jackass who thinks he knows anything about health care talks endlessly about how the Canadian system is better. I am an Ex-Pat now living in the US so I know. I have experienced both systems 1st hand. The Canadian system *SUCKS*.

Yes, yes it is clear that the statistics for a country will be better if you have universal health care. That's so painfully clear it hurts. Since there are a great number of simple problems which can be solved by a simple application of medicine.

However if you have the choice between the two systems the choice is clear: the US. US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

It is simply better if you can afford it.

quote:

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*IF* you can afford US health care it is far superior. Period.

That's the problem. You can't simply ignore the people who can't afford it and then state that the system is superior. If you want your sample to be at all indicative of the actual state, then you must include even those people that can't afford proper healthcare.

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I sure can say it is better. I said it is better *IF* you can afford it, you are the jackass saying the Canadian system is simply better. I qualified my statement to make it correct. I'm all for a 2 tier system. Of course you can't sell a 2-tier system. Hell most Canadian’s will not admit that they have a 2 tier system even though they all have "rich friends" who get procedures done in the US.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:37: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

What's funny (that's funny as in "damned disgusting") is that the Republicans who so very much despise the concept of universal healthcare as destructive of America's present fine medical care system are also very busy trying to undo the very system of tort laws that you assert is the underpinning of why the U.S. has good health care. So, if things progress (devolve is actually a better term) the way they are going, the U.S. will end up with the worst of all possible systems: medical care that's expensive, covers only the rich, and with no system of protection against negligent/incompetent practicioners. Something to ponder ...

EDIT: OTOH, the present tort law system makes lawyers very rich, at the expense of EVERYONE else. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't, with regards to healthcare/tort reform.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:50: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
You can quickly reach logical coherency by discarding this premise as false. Graeme, however, would likely call me a horrible person for saying such a thing, as if I was some sort of serial killer or mass-murderer merely because I have logically discarded an internally inconsistent belief.

You're completely full of **** Norfleet. Please provide a link to where I've stated that "All life is sacred", as you seem to be implying that I've said. I expect you to either provide such a link, or apologize for lying about what I've stated. I've said that human always has value, but have said nothing about other, non-human anmals.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
However if you have the choice between the two systems the choice is clear: the US. US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

Well, you've certainly found a doctor who prescribes good psychedelics if you think the compensation and system here ensure the best health care. The doctors here are, by and large, overpaid, and have such good insurance that many don't feel a need to pay attention to what they're doing. Where I just came from in Florida, the _best_ local hospital had doctors amputating the wrong limbs, performing surgeries on the wrong people, and killing people by prescribing the wrong drugs.

Tort law does nothing to prevent this. And under many health plans, people don't even get a chance to go to tort law anyway - it goes to mediation, said mediation being people who are on the health plans' payrolls, deciding whether the outfit that gives their paychecks was right. Guess how they decide most of the time?

It is simply better if you can afford it.

You know - I got better health care in Colombia South America this New Years Eve. No medical insurance for that country, 5 in the evening New Years Eve - I waited in the emergency room for less than half an hour, saw a good doctor, was out in less than 1.5 hours total, and spent somewhat under $100, including two medications prescribed.

It's pretty flaming sad when a country as ... internally mangled as Colombia has better health service than the USA - with the health plan my employer gave me, as a $65,000 employee, I would have had to pay more, for worse treatment, at home.

Sure - rich Colombians come here for fancy operations. So do the ultra rich Russians, Saudis, etc, because everyone knows - rich people can get the _best_ treatment in the USA.

Fifty years ago, the average doctor earned about 5 times the average person's pay. The average CEO made about 10 times his average employee's salary. Today, the doctor makes 50 times the average pay in his area; the CEO makes 500 times the average employee's pay.

Capitalism is broken, at least in this country. For blood's sake, some of the richest and smartest capitalists in the country say so - Warren Buffet, Paul Allen, George Soros, etc.

When corporations were originally given equal status to human beings / citizens in this country, no one imagined a day when the corporations sole responsibility was to itself, its executives, and even more so, to its stock holders. A corporations prime responsibility is ... fiduciary. It has to make money for the stock holders, and damn everything else. Not just make money - but make the _most_ money.

Otherwise, the companies can, and have been, sued, for not maximizing the shareholders wealth.

Glad you like a country that, with one of the largest gaps between poor and rich in the world, has gone back to giving the rich huge tax cuts.

Feh.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
[QB]If you can afford it you go to the US. If you can not you get treated in Canada.[/QB}

I assume you can provide statistics to back up this claim, and can also show that the portion of people who get their health care in the U.S. has even a statistically significant effect on the overall quality of out health care.

Yes, yes it is clear that the statistics for a country will be better if you have universal health care. That's so painfully clear it hurts. Since there are a great number of simple problems which can be solved by a simple application of medicine.

The point of _any_ economic system is to create the most good for the most people. If your system doesn't do this, then there is a problem. That should also be the point of a health care system.

US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care.

Please outline the difference between U.S. and Canadian tort law that makes U.S. health care safer.

I sure can say it is better. I said it is better *IF* you can afford it, you are the jackass saying the Canadian system is simply better.

Which is the point. Do you really like to build strawman arguments?

I qualified my statement to make it correct. I'm all for a 2 tier system. Of course you can't sell a 2-tier system. Hell most Canadian’s will not admit that they have a 2 tier system even though they all have "rich friends" who get procedures done in the US.

I'm still waiting for something other than your unsupported assertion that this is the case.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You're completely full of **** Norfleet.

It's a medical condition known as a "bowel obstruction". It happens when your head is stuck up your ***.