OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Boron]

Originally posted by daesthai:

quote:

---

... but if you think about it the guidlines of the church HAVE been wrong before ...

Which brings me back full circle to my original point. If a person feels that a belief system is incorrect in one of its basic and heavily touted precepts, why would that person claim to share that belief system?

---

i think you quoted that a bit bad and left out the main point :

Originally posted by Cheezeninja
:

but if you think about it the guidlines of the church HAVE been wrong before (flat earth, anyone?) and could easily be wrong again. Thats no reason to cut all ties with the organization that you might respect and love deeply.

so a question : galilei was the one who discovered that . i am pretty sure you know the story . the catholic church forced him to deny his ideas . he did .

but now some hundred years later the pope spoke galilei holy .

so even the catholic church recognizes severe mistakes and corrects them even if only slowly .
so if they change it themselfes it is good or what ?
while when luther did that 500 years ago he was a devil ?

and it is the best proof that the catholic church + the pope aren't inerrant as they always claim .
ihmo the catholic church is just hypocritical.
furthermore there is nothing in the bible that justifes the catholic worship of saints .
one of the 10 commandmends says you should have no other gods beside me .
but in the catholic church the worship for especially maria is more important than for jesus .

Originally posted by daesthai:
I believe in one holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.

the claiming of the catholic church that it is the one and only true belief is just offending to me . what about that :
the jews already believed in god thousands of years before the catholic church was founded . so their claiming to be the first true and only belief is historical legitimated .

furthermore jesus founded the catholic church but he has gotten pretty unimportant in the catholic belief .
luther had to recover that .

i am a protestant as you may have noticed perhaps

i just think the catholic church is the most hypocritical in the world ( expect perhaps some sects ) . they are more intolerant than every one else though they always claim moslems and protestants are .

the catholic church is the church which broke the rules of the 10 commandments frequently very serious :
examples :
-the inquisition
-the crusades
-the 30 years war
-selling of indulgences
-quite modern one : the catholic pope supported hitler

in the middle ages the pope was also a ruler of the popal states and waged endless wars to conquer whole italy .

so the pope is just blasphemy .

finally one Last argument for the hypocrisy of the catholic church :
the first popes like petrus were marriaged .
so why may now priests + the pope not marriage anymore ?

protestants don't have a pope because he is really just blasphemy and the priests may marry .

i think even the muslim priests which are the most inferior belief in catholic eyes may marry .

in my eyes the catholic faith is just a misinterpretation of the christian belief .
the popes abused their believers just for their own profit . especially the selling of indulgences is a good example for that .

if you can name me one other belief in the world which has done as many evil things as frequent as the catholics then i will excuse but if you can't i think that is enough that i am proven to be right .

edit : i excuse if my tone is too harsh but i hope you see that the catholic church just tries to blind you and the from the catholic church damned protestant and moslem beliefs are 1000 times more christian than the catholic one .

[ July 28, 2004, 04:09: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Huzurdaddi]

Sure they are evidence. They also happen to be useless in drawing conclusions about the actual state of something.

Geeze. Well no more empirical science. Graeme hath decreed that it is "useless." Too bad all sciences are emperical. Bummer for us.

So, like I said in one of my 1st Posts I'm an ex-pat and ths I have actually seen the health care on both sides of the fence. Since you are flapping your mouth off I have to assume that you are also an ex-pat with a differing experience. I mean, gosh I hope you have some actual experience in the matter. I mean, gosh I hope you are not just uselessly flapping your mouth off when you don't even have any idea what you are talking about. I *really* hope that is not the case.

Aggregate health statistics are the _only_ meaningful measurement

Phew. I am *so* glad that you continually define the terms of the argument to suit your purposes. Sadly it's not what I asserted. Which was *if* you can pay the US system is better. Sadly you seem incapable of understanding that.

You are a funny and sad at the same time. Congratulations!

[Zapmeister]

Oh goodie, a religious flamefest! Count me in

Originally posted by Boron:
the claiming of the catholic church that it is the one and only true belief is just offending to me .

On the other hand, there is at most one distinct religious belief that is true. And many Groups (not just the Catholic church) claim that theirs is it. If anyone finds this offensive, they can count on being offended rather a lot.

It's better, I think, to understand that religious belief is, by its nature, exclusive. Religious tolerance is a good thing, of course, but largely out of reach of heavily committed religious people.

what about that :
the jews already believed in god thousands of years before the catholic church was founded . so their claiming to be the first true and only belief is historical legitimated .

Catholicism is not defined and distinguished by a belief in one god. Both Judaism and Islam share this belief. It's the Catholic interpretation of scripture, most particularly around the person of Jesus and his mother, that defines the Catholic faith. And all of that could be true, even if all Jewish belief prior to Jesus was also true. The first 5 books of the Bible are, after all, Jewish scripture.

furthermore jesus founded the catholic church but he has gotten pretty unimportant in the catholic belief .

Actually, I think Peter founded the Catholic Church as a vehicle to facilitate the worship of Jesus. But yes, it's interesting to note the emphasis that has been placed on Mary at the expense, some would say, to Jesus himself.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
Oh goodie, a religious flamefest! Count me in

Me too!

Voodoo, astrology, palm-reading, numerology, Scientology, Unification, Judeo-Christianity-Islam, et cetera. It's all myth, superstition, and outright bunk. Pablum for the masses and power/wealth for the clerics.

Have I offended *everyone*? If not, I need to try harder. All of you take the above nonsense far too seriously.

-- Arryn, resident agnostic.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Arryn:
It's all myth, superstition, and outright bunk.

If you believe this, then you're not ...

-- Arryn, resident agnostic.

... you're a strong atheist. Agnostics believe that the question of the existence of god(s) is intrinsically unsolvable, as opposed to "bunk".

I classify myself as an "agnostic weak atheist", i.e. someone who regards the problem as unsolvable and, in addition, has not adopted a religious faith. Agnostic theists exist - people who know there's no way of proving it but choose to believe in a god anyway.

[Norfleet]

I think there are really two fundamental questions about a "god" or other related being.

Firstly, does one exist? It has not been proved that one does, and it's obviously an impossibility to prove that such a thing cannot exist.

However, the real question is....assuming such a thing does exist, is it deserving of worship? This is a question we certainly CAN answer. Personally, I have to say that the answer is "no". I cannot attribute anything I'd actually be thankful about that has occurred in my life to anything other than my own efforts, so I can't say I'd find any such being deserving of my worship. I'd like to see some verifiable miracles before I start worshipping anyone. It should be noted that, technically, an evil miracle is still a miracle, and while highly effective at inducing belief, tends to produce more terror than actual worshipfulness. Which is probably more amusing anyway.

[ July 28, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Boron:


but if you think about it the guidlines of the church HAVE been wrong before (flat earth, anyone?) and could easily be wrong again. Thats no reason to cut all ties with the organization that you might respect and love deeply.

so a question : galilei was the one who discovered that . i am pretty sure you know the story . the catholic church forced him to deny his ideas . he did .

but now some hundred years later the pope spoke galilei holy .


Actually, I think most of the stories about people thinking the world is flat are apocryphal. Certainly, the Greeks knew it was round and the flat earth was not the reason Galileo was persecuted.

The issue there was whether the Sun or the Earth lay at the centre of the solar system. Catholic teaching demanded that it be the Earth, but Galileo knew otherwise.

And yes, official recognition of the error was only forthcoming from the Catholic church in recent times.