OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Boron]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:


but if you think about it the guidlines of the church HAVE been wrong before (flat earth, anyone?) and could easily be wrong again. Thats no reason to cut all ties with the organization that you might respect and love deeply.

so a question : galilei was the one who discovered that . i am pretty sure you know the story . the catholic church forced him to deny his ideas . he did .

but now some hundred years later the pope spoke galilei holy .


Actually, I think most of the stories about people thinking the world is flat are apocryphal. Certainly, the Greeks knew it was round and the flat earth was not the reason Galileo was persecuted.

The issue there was whether the Sun or the Earth lay at the centre of the solar system. Catholic teaching demanded that it be the Earth, but Galileo knew otherwise.

And yes, official recognition of the error was only forthcoming from the Catholic church in recent times.

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yeah it was the sun . i just quoted Cheezeninja's
and didn't notice that small fault .
but the old astrologists like galileo are really good examples for that and similiar with darwin some catholic sects still claim that the bible is true and the earth got formed in 6 days .

the main problem with the catholic church i have is that they are the most "aggressive" big world religion . they evangelise still intolerant .
in history they even forced other beliefs violently to theirs like the inqisition in spain or the crusades .
on the other hand the muslims tolerated catholic beliefers in the middle ages and didn't force them to get either catholic or killed .
same with the force proselitiziation of the native americans .
protestants , buddhists and so on try to convince you rational that their faith is the one true but if they can't convince you they don't treat you as a worse human .
while the catholic church is much more agressive and treats you as inferior if you don't let you convince to become catholic and stay with your belief .

that makes me fear . fanaticism is evil . just look at bin laden . but the muslim faith is in general more tolerant bin laden is only a sect which isn't even tolerated by the muslim leaders while the catholic church seems to me much more fanatic and they tolerate , even support extreme and almost violent catholic sects .
at least in europe the catholics are this way perhaps the american catholics are more moderate because they are not as dependent on the pope as the european ones and they are not the majority in the usa so they can't afford to be as arrogant as they are in europe .
in the area where i life protestants are a small minority ( about 5-10% ) and especially the old catholics are still very intolerant and even show us protestants that we are very inferior in their eyes .
they would almost like to start a new 30 years war lol .
so my view of the catholics is perhaps a bit biased by own expierience .
of course every major group has "black sheeps" but normally the main organisation tries to get rid of these "black sheeps" .
while with the catholic church this is the other way round . there the highest leaders not only tolerate these black sheeps but even share their opinions .

it is like e.g. in a democracy still some or many politicians are corrupt but at least a democracy tries to limit corruption while in a dictature it is supported and the dictator him self profits most from that .
the pope is in many ways similiar to that .
the current pope is good and rather modest but his most likely successor ratzinger is very intolerant again .

[ July 28, 2004, 12:56: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Boron:
the main problem with the catholic church i have is that they are the most "aggressive" big world religion . they evangelise still intolerant .

However, almost all "evangelical" Groups, be they Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, or even Hindu, are intolerant. Kinda makes you wish the world had only one faith: Buddhist. Ever seen an evangelical Buddhist monk? I haven't.

fanaticism is evil .

Yes, it is. In any form. Especially PETA.

just look at bin laden . but the muslim faith is in general more tolerant bin laden is only a sect which isn't even tolerated by the muslim leaders while the catholic church seems to me much more fanatic and they tolerate , even support extreme and almost violent catholic sects .

Can you name an "extreme" Catholic sect that exists *today*? (And cite examples of what makes them "extreme" and "almost violent".)

Disregarding small Groups of disaffected people such as hard-core IRA, Orangemen, fanatical Israelis (the aforementioned three Groups mainly being about matters of tradition, vengeance, or land-ownership and not about religious differences), and the occasional sociopathic Christian anti-abortionist, can you name me any Judeo-Christians that go around blowing themselves up? Or brutally murdering hostages in the name of God? I don't think so. Not even Serbs and Croats commit their atrocities for the sake of their faith. Only practicioners of Islam have this reprehensible practice today. The rest of the world became, more or less, civilized and ceased such things as crusades, inquisitions (if we ignore the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security), and burnings-at-stakes. Despite all that you can say about Islam being a peaceful religion, a far larger percentage of its followers remain stuck in medieval barbarism than do the followers of any other religion. Please explain why this is so ...

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
That assertion makes no sense, because obviously, Zaire does not have a great health care system if people there are leaving the country to seek their health care. Nobody goes *TO* Zaire to get treatment.

No, it simply illustrates that you can't judge whether a system works by ignoring all the cases where it doesn't. After all, that's what hius argument really is.

Canada may have a system in which people who have money go to the US to seek health care....but this just underscores the point that Canada's healthcare system, while more ubiquitous, is still of inferior quality.

I wasn't aware that the proper way to judge whether something was good was to ignore every single instance where that thing fails.

You certainly can't deny that people do this: I've known several Canadians who do this exact thing: Travel to the US to get some operation performed....at their own expense.

I won't deny that some people do this. I will still ask to see that the number of people who do this is statistically significant.

Healthcare, in whatever form, however, is not free, even in Canada. You STILL have to pay for it, but instead of paying for your OWN problems, you're ending up paying for someone ELSE's problems.

But so what really? When it comes down to it you pay less than if you weren't paying for everyone else's problems, and all of society benefits as a whole.

I don't see this as a good thing, as it certainly provides a strong disincentive for people to deal with their own personal problems.

Yes, because people don't bother to work hard when that means that they will make more money. I suppose that you also support the privatization of police forces, since only people that require them should have to pay for them.

If people have to deal with their own problems, the ones that are willing to work to overcome their issues succeed, the slackers perish. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Yep. The standard "people who fail are always lazy" fallacy of false causes.

[spirokeat]

posted by Boron

at least in europe the catholics are this way perhaps the american catholics are more moderate because they are not as dependent on the pope as the european ones and they are not the majority in the usa so they can't afford to be as arrogant as they are in europe .

Fan of the sweeping generalisation are we old bean ?

I think you will find that almost all major religions have a bloody past and to single out Catholics as having some kind of monopoly, past and present on attrocities is what's arrogant, never mind the MASSIVE insult you just curve ball'd at Europeans.

I think were I to be arsed digging up some information I would find that the US has had a fantastic record in crackpot religious cults slaughtering and generally making a nuisance of themselves in the name of God or Goverment. Lets face it, You have Bush right now, so that practically invalidates any arguement the US has for not being right at the top of psuedo-nutjob leaders list be they religious or not.


Spiro

[ July 28, 2004, 13:51: Message edited by: spirokeat ]

[Arryn]

Spirokeat,

Boron is from Germany, not the U.S., as you believe. Chastising him as if he were an American is hardly fair. He's arguably more European than you are.

[spirokeat]

You have Bush right now, so that practically invalidates any arguement the US has for not being right at the top of psuedo-nutjob leaders list be they religious or not.

Best change that to

The US has bush right now, so that practically invalidates any arguement the US has for not being right at the top of pseudo-nutjob arrogant leaders list, be they religious or not.

Spiro.

[Boron]

Originally posted by spirokeat:
Fan of the sweeping generalisation are we old bean ?

Spiro

i also posted that :

Originally posted by Boron :
so my view of the catholics is perhaps a bit biased by own expierience

and after that i declared that every group has its own black sheeps but that the catholic group has the longest and bloodiest history in doing crimes in the name of god .
my main disagree with the catholic church is the institution of the pope .
as i have stated before that is blasphemy nowhere in the bible can be found legitimation for the office of the pope .

i come from bavaria and we have here some maria worshipping sects that are really intolerant .
they are only one step away from suicide bombers . most bavarians are very intolerant .
catholic and csu-voters ( csu means christian social union , it is one of the 2 major german parties ) .
i am a confident protestant spd-voting bavarian .
with that attitude my attitude differs greatly towards the bavarian majority .
bavaria is germans most conservative country .
only with catholic csu-voters with high education you can discuss fairly but with 90% of the not so educated people discussion will follow that simple pattern :
if you say anything against csu ( they are almost like the SED in bavaria ruled from 1949 until now alone always with 50%+ majority ) they just say you are a public enemy and go to prussia if you wanna complain .
whether or not kohl is mainly responsible for our great state deficit doesn't interest them .
they simply neglect despite it is true .

Originally posted by Arryn :

Spirokeat,

Boron is from Germany, not the U.S., as you believe. Chastising him as if he were an American is hardly fair. He's arguably more European than you are.

thnx arryn

yeah britain is the sole major european country left that's not in the eu .

oh and ps : isn't britain protestant ?
henry VIII dissociated from the pope .
so i don't get why you attack me complaining about the pope ?

[ July 28, 2004, 14:12: Message edited by: Boron ]