common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?

[Ryukenden]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryukenden:
Wait a sec, aren't crossbows "armor piercing," making them able to negate protection?

One of the turn tips mentions that crossbows are AP, so they halve (not negate) prot.

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Oops, haven't gotten that tip yet. Well, that idea has now gone down the toilet. Hmmm, there's always the Eye of Aiming scheme (probably won't work, but worth a shot).

[ July 29, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: Ryukenden ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:
ok as promised my first attempt to provide a cheap sc kill idea :

Here's one from me.

1. Choose Caelum base theme.
2. Recruit some troops, any troops. (Infantry of some sort would be nice.)
3. Set to "attack fliers"; kill SC.

Heheh, sorry Boron, couldnt resist after our Last little MP together.

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no comment on that one

Originally posted by tinkthank:

Here's another one.
1. Choose Machaka. Or Marignon. Or Tien Chi. Or any nation with easy access to fire and archers.
2. Reasearch Flaming Arrows.
3. Set to "fire enemy fliers"; kill SC.

EDIT: Sorry, this assumes by SC you mean your beloved VQ.

FA is particularly nice because at least some of your troops can keep their distance; the SC cant be everywhere at once.

see me new post why that is only relyable until protection 20 according to the odds .

Originally posted by tinkthank:

Here's another one:
1. Choose Ermor. Or Pan CW. Or any nation with easy access to lots of undead.
2. Make lots of undead armies led by undead mages.
3. Swarm SC.

undeads have 0 fatigue ---> never fatigue out ----> no ap attacks .

the later swarmers of course win the attack throw.
but due to their lack of ap even if you get a value of 20 from adding weapondamage + strenght you only make 0.131 avg. damage against a 30 protection unit .
so you hit but even the small regeneration of the vq will be enough to heal that damage .

sorry couldn't resist to answer

what you can achieve with swarming by mass skellettons etc. is of course reaching turn 50 and force the sc to rout .

but thnx you gave me a new idea :
i so far lack any jotun expierience so this is only a guess :
when jotun uses raise skelletons shouldn't they get undead jotun giants ?
a living jotun has a strengh of about 20 so i assume a longdead giant has still a strengh of 20 . together with the jotun weapons they get +3 for spear and +7 for axe and +9 for longsword .

not bad . so at best only 1 difference between prot and damage .
there the odds are 1.67 avg damage .

i have run a quicktest . it seems that 1/10 or something similiar of the reanimated are longdeads the rest normal skeletons .
powerful .

so a new very simply anti sc strat lol :

play niefelheim ^^. you can chose good scales + only a support god there .
bring out 1 niefel jarl / turn .

research ench 3 .
just reanimate with your niefels then put them on what you want , i think attack orders would be good .

problem is 40 fatigue and d2 for reanimate orders.
so you can only cast it twice .

but later with 10 niefel jarls that are 100 skeletons 10 of them jotuns + the niefels .
that should kill most sc's very brutal .
if you even give the niefel jarls duskdaggers ^^.
you can use some gygias with lucky picks too for reanimation .

[archaeolept]

lol Boron, you think much too highly of 20 prot

a mass of flaming arrows will still devastate an SC w/ only 20 protection.

but if you want a cheap SC counter, go for the marignon flaming head bless strat, F9 S9 on massed flagellants. 200 bucks worth will kill a VQ.

[ July 29, 2004, 17:07: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
[QB]but due to their lack of ap even if you get a value of 20 from adding weapondamage + strenght you only make 0.131 avg. damage against a 30 protection unit .[QB]

That's just the average damage. Consider what happens when 100 of those arrows hit at once.

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

quote:

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Originally posted by vigabrand:

Well I ran into a snag using mechanicals. Recently, I was fighting a VQ with mechanical men, and an iron dragon. The VQ was the only one on the field, so I couldn't stop my dragon from attacking after 2 rounds, so it gets there before my troops do. The VQ was hitting it and getting hp from it, and she finally kills it. My mechanical men get there and mostly surround her, and she continues to hit them and gain hp, and she eventually wiped out like 80% of my troops. Next go around I was able to cast weapons of sharpness on my mech men and managed to kill her quick enough before she did too much damage. I was under the assumption that mechanical units were not alive and wouldn't aid life drainers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

You know, I think life drain may be broken in a couple of respects. I could swear too that I had seen a lifedrainer gain HP from constructs and from undead at some points.

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no vq has regeneration .
that is the source for her additional life .

[vigabrand]

Boron, I don't think it was regen. She was getting more hp than she started with. I didn't think regen could do that.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That's just the average damage. Consider what happens when 100 of those arrows hit at once.

hm do they really hit you during buffing ?
if you place rearmost on the battle field ?
even with wind guide on i doubt that you land much hits. against these first few hits you could wear a cheap armor which ensures that you survive at least .

again the important numbers :

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

the normal x-bow missile : marignon :
10 ap damage :
so avg. damage on 20 protection : 2.13
" " " " 30 " : 0.570

protection 30 is if you aim at it really early available ( turn 10 ca. ) with invulnerability .
any sc with 3 earth can cast it .

if you have only flaming arrows even when meeleeing the archers the friendly fire casualities will be very high.
you would need to get about 50-60 damage against a vq in friendly dominion at least .
given the not too frightening looking avg. damage of "only" 0.570 and 0.321 it seems to me if you don't have hyperlarge amounts of 100+ x-bows you have still bad odds defeating even an almost unequipped vq .

if the army is really e.g. 200 x-bows than i of course wouldn't attack with a vq only .

or maybe
when you face only weak opposition the ai overrides your gem costing battle scripts .
so 1 unit against 100+ should be weak opposition .
so normally the ai should override the use of wind guide + flaming arrows shouldn't it ?