Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Boron:

edit : if i take at least air 2 for my vq i have a nice advantage in early - midgame defense though because per cloud trapeze she can pick her battles so no need to guess moves .

your ghostking is really nice but he lacks fly + regeneration + immortality 3 abilities i love with the vq . your ghostking shares 0 basic protection .

so earlygame after buffresearch i can use my vq against every indeps even if she dies not too much is lost while you always have to either worry a bit with about 20% of the indy provinces .
e.g. knights may be lucky and give you a nasty early game affliction . he could become feeble minded and your healing hero doesn't show up too .

especially in these dangerous provinces though are often strong magic sites which tien chi needs so urgent .

a Last thought : although my scales are so economic hostile i will have in defending battles some advantages :
-cold 3 works in favour of my undead hordes
-in low population provinces enemies with lots of troops are forced to either fight with starving or forge supply items


your strat allows better bloodhunting though with some lucky randoms because the population slowly regrows .

Lots of right thoughts from you here.

-cloud trapeze:
you are right.
In early game I use him only for expansion and site searching.Later on,I dont plan to use him for battles.After all,your pretender cant do everything at once...so I just hide somewhere,forging items and casting rituals by midgame..maybe conquering a water province from time to time.I dont need teleporting abilities that much therefore...I therefore rather take the scales than Air magic.

-Ghost King as SC
I think the Ghost King is a little bit underestimated.
IMO,its the perfect mixture of SC and rainbow pretender.
He has more base HP`s than the VQ and its extremely easy to get a defensive Skill of +30 quite fast.
Of course he needs some items(boots of flying,pendant of luck,and such),before attacking really difficult indies...but against most the standard buffing spells are enough.
Most battle afflictions arent that bad,especially since I only use him as SC for early expansion.
I agree though,that I could always have really ,really bad luck and getting feeble minded early on...thats the price I pay for better scales.

-your scales:
Cold 3 is indeed nice for undead troops,but means another severe income hit.
I agree,that cold3/death 3 combo means big supply problems for enemy armies,whereas my Growth scale is inviting them

-better blood hunting because of growth:
Not only this,I can use my starting troops to patrol my home provinces and set taxes to 120 or 130,without losing too much population on the longterm

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Boron:
[no other pretender that can do this unequipped comes to my mind . [/QB]

You should look deeper at the phoenix
I currently play it a lot in SP and it means lots of fun.
I think,the Phoenix is also widely underestimated,especially by all VQ fans .

[Vynd]

This thread has drifted somewhat off its original topic. And yet I think it proves Arralen's point that Tien Chi S&A is a relatively weak theme that could use some help. If S&A's national troops and required scales are so bad that you may as well forget about buying them and just pour all of your points into a Pretender, then S&A is not very good.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Mardagg:

-better blood hunting because of growth:
Not only this,I can use my starting troops to patrol my home provinces and set taxes to 120 or 130,without losing too much population on the longterm

that is not too good i think because of this you wrote
iirc you lose lots of population through higher taxes then 100% , more population through patrolling and finally :
your patrollers most likely have upkeep .

so even in the short run you get more money most likely without patrollers and taxes simply at 100%.


hm i think the phönixes niche where he shines is for marignon : e.g. f9 bless effect + he can be risked on indy provinces hopefully conquering them through holy pyre / fire darts .

but 80 new path costs , base hp of 12 and only 2 misc + 1 headslot look too limiting to me to use him as an sc .


the problem with the vq is i think she is still the best allrounder pretender sc fully euqipped.

of course a lucky e.g. soul slay may kill her .
but that is true for every sc .
other than that i think because of her very good built in abilities the only reliable solution to kill her are armor negating weapons using scs , for nonhighstrenghts scs like niefel jarls i think though a gate cleaver is needed to kill her reliable .
but that is if you use the vq as sc .

if you use her as leader of a great army i think the chances are really bad to kill her only due to luck with e.g. soul slay you might kill her or if the attacker makes scripting faults .

but more important i think first e.g. the father of serpents and the like need a bit of improvement . i think at the moment only about 10 of the 40-50 available pretenders are chosen for mp 90% of the time without houserules .

[Boron]

Originally posted by Vynd:
This thread has drifted somewhat off its original topic. And yet I think it proves Arralen's point that Tien Chi S&A is a relatively weak theme that could use some help. If S&A's national troops and required scales are so bad that you may as well forget about buying them and just pour all of your points into a Pretender, then S&A is not very good.

yeah i agree now too . but barbarian kings is also 1+ forced turmoil but has much worse mages and only very slightly better troops so i think they should be at a higher priority list with balancing . similiar candidates that come to my mind are Golden era arco and caelum RoTr .
but before balancing themes adding themes to nations without themes (e.g. machaka ) or adding the 3rd water race i would even wish more for .

but balancing weak themes a bit is probably much easier to do than adding a completely new theme/nation .

the final problem with improving a theme by strengthening it is imho that they may get a too good boost and become too strong .

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Vynd:
This thread has drifted somewhat off its original topic. And yet I think it proves Arralen's point that Tien Chi S&A is a relatively weak theme that could use some help. If S&A's national troops and required scales are so bad that you may as well forget about buying them and just pour all of your points into a Pretender, then S&A is not very good.

I disagree here.
To clarify my opinion on topic:

If you want ok troops,you can play base tien chi.
You have,besides a nice variety of mages,good alround armies.Still,even for base Tien Chi,the strength of the nation lies in the magic power.

The composite bowmen are cheap and if you think in bigger numbers(+20 archers)the difference between the better composite bow and a normal short bow does matter.Also you have crossbowmen right from the start,as well as ok heavy infantries,even a bless effect strategy might work.
S&A on the otherhand has a strong amount of 3 starting summoning spells,which all require different gems(thats a big advantage!),and one of the best mages of the game,with increased power compared to base theme, so I see no problem why the national troops lack some unique units compared to base theme.
Just because there is no need to buy lots of national troops,because you can summon your armies right from the start,doesnt mean they need better troops.
It plays differently than the base theme and is certainly not much weaker,if at all(I consider it stronger in most situations btw)...and that is exactly what the developers say the themes are for.

Barbarian Kings need improvement,lots of it.

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Boron:
[that is not too good i think because of this you wrote
iirc you lose lots of population through higher taxes then 100% , more population through patrolling and finally :
your patrollers most likely have upkeep .

so even in the short run you get more money most likely without patrollers and taxes simply at 100%.


hm i think the phönixes niche where he shines is for marignon : e.g. f9 bless effect + he can be risked on indy provinces hopefully conquering them through holy pyre / fire darts .

but 80 new path costs , base hp of 12 and only 2 misc + 1 headslot look too limiting to me to use him as an sc .


[/QB]

Well,I was serious,even though it was only a small point.
The standard patrollers for Tien Chi cost upkeep,right,but its less than the gold you get at taxes 120.
Its a small gold boost,only to get a slightly faster start.
You dont lose that much population at growth 3 if you patrol the first 3-4 turns.After it,you sacrifice your starting troops and try to look for upkeep free patrollers,whenever you have some summonings in your home castle.I usually stop patrolling (which I do only from time to time) at around turn 30 or whenever I feel I earn enough money.

I play the phoenix much different.
With Air/Fire magic alone you get lots of nice spell combos.
Getting 1 expensive other path is also ok,but not necessary.
Also dont forget AWE on the Phoenix,as I said,dont underestimate it.
Its nice to see those Infantries get to my phoenix,after suffering from several damage spells
,just to do nearly no damage against my Mistformed,Mirror Imaged ,Fire Shielded and AWE Phoenix.
Usually this is the case,when my scripted spells are finished and then the AI starts casting those short range mass damage spells...
If there are archers,you have air shield,too.
And this are only the basic spell combos.
You die a hell of a lot,but you also kill huge amounts of troops.
The key to play the phoenix ,expecially in MP,is to know how to script him correctly against certain enemies AND to know what the AI casts in certain situations.