Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Boron:
(snip!)

really curious i know i must have overlooked something with my assertions

Heh.

I wasn't criticizing any particular set-up, just offering my own (fairly extensive MP) experience in playing S+A.

But since you're asking for an analysis of your design. I'll try to indulge you.

I think the main issue with the strategy you outline is early expansion/viability in MP.

Having an "uber" VQ with crap scales and a watchtower means that everyone is going to make it their number one priority to kill you.

Your income analysis ignored the major difference that my Version has a citadel, which gives admin income advantages, and make people unlikely to want to storm your capital.

Also, one's capital provides the bulk of the income through the (most important) beginning turns and growth-3 allows you to run taxes at 120% without pop loss.

In practical terms you've underestimated the income advantage (already large)of the scale set up by at least another 40%, and that will widen as the game goes forward.

While it is true that the VQ will eventually make for a fine normal troop killing machine, that requires research driven buffs... with no income for regular troops you will be *very* slow at the start. Too slow to avoid being cannibalized, in my view.

I'm not saying S+A is without problems, but the art of doing well with S+A is surviving long enough to get your CM's and mini SC's (Nobles, Troll Kings, firbolg) outfitted for combat, while maximizing your expansion and gem income.

Plus I'll have a sizable base army to supplement, which is not obviously the case for the scorched-earth VQ setup.

Even ignoring the expansion advantage... By midgame the scale heavy strat will have more mages, more research, a better primary SC, a much better fort for choke points, hugely better income and better diplomatic prospects. IMHO.

I think the Earth Mother is an excellent choice for S+A as it gives you relatively inexpensive coverage of your weak paths. I have come to prefer the naked Nata just because it is absolutely free, you don't have to be as careful with it, it can't research, so you *have* to expand with it, and in mid/late game they make the ultimate SC.

By putting all your eggs in the VQ basket you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that makes S+A fun (and extremely effective mid/late game)

It's a matter of taste, perhaps.

I'd be interested in hearing stories from those who have played S+A in MP... is the callow VQ strat viable, particularly post-nerf?


Rabe

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by rabelais:
By putting all your eggs in the VQ basket you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that makes S+A fun (and extremely effective mid/late game)

It's a matter of taste, perhaps.

I'd be interested in hearing stories from those who have played S+A in MP... is the callow VQ strat viable, particularly post-nerf?

I'd have to say that from my experiences in testing games, this is a rather awful plan...and this comes from a veteran VQ player. The primary issue with a VQ strategy is that you have really only a limited window of opportunity in which your club works, against anyone who's halfway decent: Once someone has enough research under his belt, he can shutdown a lone VQ at minimal cost. At that point, your edge is history, and if that's all you have, so are you. Unfortunately, S&A already suffers from crappy income, and trying to fuel a super-VQ without "Freebie" points is going to hurt that even more. With nonexistent income, you can't afford to churn out the temples that keep your VQ immortal, and you can't afford the castles that keep said temples from being burninated.

Even if you squeeze to make ends meet, now your research suffers horribly from being unable to afford researchers. While you may be able to hang on in the early game, your paralyzing lack of research will cripple you as you enter the midgame. Not good.

[peasant]

I like Tien Chi, but never tried S&A seriously until this thread. Tested in SP

Boy, is it fun! Went with nekkid Nataraja, and good scales, plus castle. Even poor provinces end up at decent income after a while, and your site searching is awesome.

The base troops are OK - esp the archers. Fire demons are good artillery, if annoying to summon. Water demons are a bit bleh, just using normal footsoldiers is usually enough of a shield while your mages do their stuff.

Flying commando CM's with rainbow armour/other reinvig items = Fun! Nataraj with 4 totem shields = hilarious support! (he's now gone SC, with lucky shield/ carbon shield/ wraith sword/ flying boots/ ring of regen/ horror helmet, but I found that the curses and arrows meant that large proportion of enemy were dead/ badly afflicted by time they hit the meat shield)

MoT5D's = every toy you want for mini SC's!

S&A heroes, with luck scale +1/2 turn up. The priestess to patch up the nataraj, the leper to cause havoc, and fly wisk guy to be an uber CM. Immortals all...

So, leave S&A as it is. It may not be uber, but I found myself laughing when playing it.

Loss of the "economy destroyer" stealth unit is a pain, but that only really works to shut down AI anyway, as players patrol.

[Boron]

thnx rabe but you left out my main question
i wanted to know how you get in midgame additional "highclass" sc's with your naked nataraja strat

my strategy has it's issues as you have proven

but i am really curious how you get higher summons midgame :

heros included with your naked nataraja you can get maximum the following paths :

A3(1/64probability with cm)
E2(1/8 probability with MoT5E)
W4 (1/64 probability with cm , w3 with 1/8 cm thats easy and enough for sea kings court )
F3 ( again 1/64 with cm )
S3 ( hero lu tung pin )
N2 ( 1/8 MoT5E , hero ho hsien-ku )
B2 ( 1/64 probability on cm )
D2 ( 1/64 probability cm , hero li tie kuai )

so you seem quite limited midgame on firbolgs / sea trolls because most path increasing items require path 3 to forge .
Nature 2 is enough for thistle mace . thats enough for firbolgs .

with lamia queens you can forge death items then and get access to e.g. demilichs + wraithlords .
lucky lamia queens (2 random sorceries ) can summon bane lords without path increase .

so you are quite dependent on nature magic imho . you have no starting nature gem income so you need luck and find nature sites .

hmm ok with much luck you get your d2 hero early he can forge for 10 deathgems then a +1 deathstaff or wraith swords .
but even with luck 3 you get only with 3% probability a hero each turn iirc .
because you have 3 heros it can take a pretty long time to get him .
empowering a death 1 mage to d2 costs 30 deathgems iirc so not cheap too .

so the problem i have with your strat :
you need much luck with random paths or getting heros for the much needed death summons / items .

not so serious but similiar to get into nature .

tien chi s&a is hard .
my attempt is not good because no money .
but with your attempt you have to sacrifice almost all points for building your economy scales and still have only slightly higher income than any other nation with complete flat scales .
any nation with order 3 and perhaps growth 3 has much higher income than you as tien chi s&a .

so imho as hard as you try doesn't prevent you from beeing one of the easier targets early - midgame if you don't have much luck .

[Agrajag]

"but even with luck 3 you get only with 3% probability a hero each turn iirc ."
IIRC, the chances of a national hero are 3% without any luck scales, +1% for every luck scale and -1% for every misfortune one, so with luck+3 its 6% per turn.
Still, after 10 turns, that's just [1 - (0.94)^10]% = 46.1384885% that any hero will turn up after 10 turns.
For 30 turns its 84.3744393%, and if you aim for only one of them, thats really unreliable...
EDIT: Just to make myself clear, that's not exactly the % of getting a hero because you are limited to 3 heroes, you have 84% that 1-30 heroes will show up, and since you only have 3 heroes available, thats not precise, but still pretty close to the actual odds.
And still unreliable as a strat...

[ August 04, 2004, 13:21: Message edited by: Agrajag ]

[Arralen]

I'm pondering for ages now how to make S&A start faster, and today it struck me like a carrier

Most nations have a spy/scout from start, but S&A doesn't. Being a slow starter, it has to look out for weak indies. That means either wasting a turn on buying a scout, or wsting more turns by attacking into the wrong direction on the 3rd or 4th turn..

Most nations start with their standard, if not their best infantry. S&A starts with a bunch of pike footmen without any armor to speak of. Ressource are most likely low, so buying a decent sized squad of heavy inf needs 5 turns or more...

Than there's no cheap non-magic commander available, so massing medium inf and archers isn't possible, too.

Sadly, all those things cannot be corrected AFAIK, as it would mean modding things special to the theme, and you can't do that, do you?

[Saber Cherry]

AFAIK, themes still cannot be modded, which is why I didn't add a "Third Tier" to BF Ulm, capable of summoning Vampire Counts. You can still "scout" by attacking with a commander set to retreat, but...