So how 'bout those Mets?

[Gandalf Parker]

otoh, we might wonder why there was seemingly so little interest on the part of "the powers that be" (Moderators, beta testers, etc...) in the norfleet phenomenon - its not like there wasn't a tide of complaints about the overpoweredness of clams, of VQ's, of castling; all originating specifically in these games. No one thought that where there was so much smoke there might be fire? It has been months since those first examples of norfleetian excess. But the response of many was just to insist that there couldn't be a problem, whether the problem turned out to be norf or game mechanics, and to not even pursue any investigation into the source of all these complaints upon their own initiative.

I thought you were smarter than that. Norfleet was in fact a well worn topic of discussion in the dominions developer forum. And in the shrapnel Moderators forum. Norfleet had sanctions against him and a watchful eye on his actions well before Stormbinder started being so loud. You sound like a high school kid who is mad that he doesnt know what goes on in the teachers lounge.

[archaeolept]

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

[Gandalf Parker]

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Actually those conversations were well followed, and in fact the VQ was changed. The clam conversations are also followed but no solution has come forth. Of course these are a couple of minor points in the overall list of things being worked on. There were also acknowledgments given by the developers and the beta team members. You might take note of the people who did receive answers, specifically the differences between their threads and the wording of them. Again, the end justifiying the means does not fly with everyone if you are waiting for some sort of thank you response.

Im sure if I worded this in the same language and tone that some people use to put their points across, that it would be much better understood. Unfortunately I would get in trouble for that unless I created a new login and sent it anonymously.

[archaeolept]

heh, nah I don't care. Dom II is filled w/ such a bunch of curmudgeons that such things as apologies or thanks are generally rarer than hens' teeth in a disco.

I don't feel that moderation, and public feedback on the issues was that stellar, but whatever. Illwinter hasn't been ignoring the problems, obviously, and deserve respect for their hard work, and for the even more work they'll be doing in the future.

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever. If someone else replaces it, if suddenly Tauren13 starts beating everyone with Lord of the Gates and Stingers, we're not going to use the logical thinking that he must be cheating and take the concerns of what the issues are (I.E. Lord of the Gates and Stingers) for their value in standard game, not some sort of cheating game.

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

And it was exactly the opposite of what people said "The VQ is broken" and not "Norfleet is cheating with the VQ". In such discussions, newbies were coming up with their own horror stories of getting beat by one handed Vampires with oodles of clams saying it was fact. Maybe an investigation should be done by anyone who stood on the 'pro-nerf' side of the fence of anything, yeah? Damn cheaters.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Then the VQ wouldn't have been balanced as it was, for the reasonings that it was. Clams wouldn't have been disregarded as "Something that can be exploited, if you have exactly the right circumstances" and Castles would all cost 600 Gold, yes?

The price of using such broad statements is you tend to selectively forget the past conversations and reasons why things were done or in this case, not done.

[archaeolept]

lol, as I remember, the "selective forgetting" has more been a policy of this forum, through the wholesale deleting of Posts it does not like.

It was clear to many that something or things were broken. The general response from the forum old guard was to stick fingers in their ears. I certainly couldn't tell if norfleet was hacking files, or if clamming were absurdly abusable, or what exactly. But there was certainly something broken, yet that was actively denied by those who should have remained neutral in the discussions then.

turn files were certainly available to anyone who wished to see what all the fuss was about. I know I didn't refuse any requests to examine them.

Again, I'm glad that some sort of resolution has been achieved. I certainly hope that illwinter is able to figure out a tougher security regimen. However, until then i'm not about to stop playing.

No it wasnt stellar. They cant participate in these discussions the way that we can

actually i wasn't referring to the devs, who, while remaining distant from the fray, certainly evidenced to me a genuine interest in the apparent problems on our part.

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever

again, turn files were available. It was dismissed out of arrogance. No one ever simply made a complaint "oh noes I was beaten that's not possible", but rather wondered how such vast resources were possible w/out a bug or broken game mechanic. People who used the word "broken" were told off in no uncertain terms by Moderators of this forum. Now, that is a fact. I would reccomend rereading some of Rabe's insightful and informative Posts on the VQ issue, for instance.

[Truper]

I thought you were smarter than that. Norfleet was in fact a well worn topic of discussion in the dominions developer forum. And in the shrapnel Moderators forum. Norfleet had sanctions against him and a watchful eye on his actions well before Stormbinder started being so loud. You sound like a high school kid who is mad that he doesnt know what goes on in the teachers lounge.

And so we come to the most patronizing comment yet. "Trust us kiddies, even though we grownups have made no mention in any public place that there has been a problem here at school, rest assured that we in our wisdom have taken steps to insure your safety and well-being. It is not for you to know what's being done, or even that anything is being done, just trust us and everything will be fine. Now just run along and go play in the schoolyard, while we get back to our serious buisiness in the teachers lounge."

It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

[Gandalf Parker]

but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

Please do a search and give me some examples. What problems were not acknowledged by Illwinter? I got tired of telling people to SEARCH or READ the whole thread. Usually Kristoffer O, Johan O, or Johan K, replied quite nicely early in the thread. The fact that they stopped replying, and sometimes even stopped reading, a thread later when it got less informative and more demanding seems to be a lesson that some people never quite figured out. The beta testers tended to hang on the longest but eventually even the most diplomatic of them tends to drop off. Searching on those names and doing some reading should make it clear to most how to best get something accomplished (and how to best screw it up).

[Truper]

Please do a search and give me some examples. What problems were not acknowledged by Illwinter? I got tired of telling people to SEARCH or READ the whole thread. Usually Kristoffer O, Johan O, or Johan K, replied quite nicely early in the thread. The fact that they stopped replying, and sometimes even stopped reading, a thread later when it got less informative and more demanding seems to be a lesson that some people never quite figured out. The beta testers tended to hang on the longest but eventually even the most diplomatic of them tends to drop off. Searching on those names and doing some reading should make it clear to most how to best get something accomplished (and how to best screw it up).

Firstly, I have read the entire thread, and in fact, you'd have to go pretty far to find a single post on this entire board that I haven't read. Secondly, I am not trying to accomplish anything here, besides chastising you for being patronizing. Thirdly, if you read the now-closed original thread, Kristoffer did nothing beyond posting a list of what Norfleet had in the game in question, letting the facts speak for themselves, as it were. While I can't really blame him for that, you'll note that he did not say: "this has been hacked or otherwise manipulated, and I'm investigating how it was done and will try to come up with a method to prevent it happening again". That is what I meant by "no explicit statement".

[johan osterman]

... It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

Im still not sure what the real problem you are refering to is, clams? or Norfleet? And how should it have been aknowledged If the problem you believe we were ignoring was Norfleet possibly cheating I don't see what you feel should have been handled differently. There was occasional instances when Norfleet triggered cheat prevention alarms. He also pulled his somewhat underhanded coup on Stormbinder. But these aren't reasons to issue an offical illwinter fatwah on him, in my mind. If you find these sorts of instances troubling or if you believed Norfleet was cheating the obvious ploy would have been avoid playing with Norfleet. If it isn't Norfleet's cheating you consider there being an official osprey behaviour on what is it, the clams? If so I still do not agree that they are overpowered, I also still do not see how it should have been handled differently. In fact the possibility of Norfleet cheating before only lends credence to our previous standpoints. And Norfleet apparantly very succesfully utilising a strategy is hardly cause for Nerfing it in the first place. Especially since other appeared to have problems reproducing it. So like an older thread suggested the problem with clamming was Norfleet, wether from extraordinary skill or cheating.