So how 'bout those Mets?

[Cainehill]

you have a tendency to be hypocritical

Do I? Perhaps, but not in this case. Stormbinder has _NO_ reasonable expectation of privacy when sending Messages to me, as I had (at least a month or two ago) told him to not send me private Messages again.

He started again. I'm not quoting a confidential correspondence - I'm paraphrasing a harassing message. Perhaps you can't see the difference, though?

[The_Tauren13]

That isn’t the only instance of your hypocrisy, only an example.
Perhaps a better one would have been your accusing storm, or anyone for that matter, of having a vendetta.

[Stormbinder]

Do I? Perhaps, but not in this case. Stormbinder has _NO_ reasonable expectation of privacy when sending Messages to me, as I had (at least a month or two ago) told him to not send me private Messages again.

He started again. I'm not quoting a confidential correspondence - I'm paraphrasing a harassing message. Perhaps you can't see the difference, though?

And once again Stormbinder displayed _his_ glaring lack of ethics / common courtesy, quoting a private email publicly

To the point of sending harassing private Messages, asking if I have the "guts" to say I'm sorry to Stormvomit, after having been told I didn't want private Messages from him.

To Cainehill: Just to bring the matter to the conclusion between us, now that the saga with Norfleet is over, I've decided to respond to your post, instead of just ignoring you us I usually did in the past. I do it mostly to prevent you from trying to smear my name and distort the facts to the people who may not be aware of them.


I am sorry to say, but what you wrote is simply untrue.


After the Norfleet's cheating was recently exposed to the public, I send you a brief message, asking you if you are willing to admit that you was wrong, when for the past 5 monthes you repeatedly insulted me on various Boards and zealosly defended Norfleet, when I was saying that Norfeet is a cheater. I did it because I wanted the matter to be settled between us and so we both could move on, now that the trutt was in the open. The message was very brief and I didn't insult you or call you names.

You have responded with message full of insults and profanity.


As for my "harassing Messages" to you - I have no idea what you are talking about. I even specificaly checked my PM archive. I never send you a single message until yesterday (other than the one that I mentioned above), harassing or otherwise. The only exception were two game-realted PMs that I've send you 10 days ago, when you suddenly expressed desire to join my new game that I was orginising, after all your past insults and flames directed at me and protecting Norfleet. In these 2 PMs I told you we need to discuss it in privite and I told you that I have no objection to you joining my game, if you will promise that, you'll stay polite in the game-thread to all other players, including Cohen, whom you always flame venemiosly and whom, as you told me yourself, you hate deeply. I also said that I want us to stop any future flamewars between you and me, since I have no interest in continuing them - the only person on the board that I have reason to despite and flame was Norfleet. Both Messages were *very* polite and neutral. You have promptly responed to both of them, also staying reasonably polite, and you have decided to withdraw from the game instead.

You never expressed any displeasure with these Messages in your responses, and you never asked me to not write you in the future.

Other than that, I never send any privite Messages to you, harassing or otherwise. And the only emails that we ever exchanged were about 5 monthes ago, when we both were playing in my "Fire and Ice" game. There was no future email correspondence between us either. I don't even have your email address.

If you are going to dispute any of this Cainehill, I am going to post both my "harrasing" message and your response, for everybody to see. Than you can again whine as much as you want about my "disregard for privicy". I will not let you lie about me and about these letters, and than hide behind the figus leaf of "privicy".


Here is a bottom line for you Cainehill, just to settle this once and for all, and I am going to say it in public for everybody to see.

You have told me just a few weeks ago, when we were talking on the Dom channel, about your past. You proudly told me how much do you enjoy all sort of flamewars, and you bragged for a very long time what a great flamer you are. You told me that in various internet forums "people are still talking about some of my flames from years ago" You feel so proud of it and you kept braging about it on and on.

Well, here are the news for you Cainehill - I am not really interested in any type of pissing contest with you. I am sorry if it will come as a shock to you. But I have much better uses for my time than silly flamewars with you. The only person I had every reason to despite and hate, for cheating and ruining my game in which I invested so much of my time and energy is gone now, after being publicly exposed as a cheater. That's enough for me.


Unlike yourself, I am not out there looking for flames of any kind. I am here to play Dom2 game and communicate with mature and intelligent fellow Dom2 players. I am not braging what a great flamer I am, and how people talk about my flames in awe, years after I am gone. To tell you the truth, I find it very silly and childish. But that's my own opinion, you can do whatever you want with your time. Hoever I duobt that Moderators will look at it kindly. But don't expect me to become your flaming partner Cainehill, in your quest to become the "Flame King of Dom2 forums". I am sorry to say, but this is not going to happen. Frankly you hold no interest for me, and I simply don't care about you one way or another. And the more desperately you'll try to involve me into your flamewars, the more silly you'll look for all other forum memebers, that's all.




With best regards,
Stormbinder

[Cainehill]

Stormbinder once again distorted:

After the Norfleet's cheating was recently exposed to the public, I send you a brief message, asking you if you are willing to admit that you was wrong, when for the past 5 monthes you repeatedly insulted me on various Boards and zealosly defended Norfleet, when I was saying that Norfeet is a cheater. I did it because I wanted the matter to be settled between us and so we both could move on, now that the trutt was in the open. The message was very brief and I didn't insult you or call you names.

Asking if I'd admit I was wrong, hmmm?

This is what you wrote, "I think you owe me a personal appology Cain. Although I don't know if you have guts to admit it."

That wasn't "asking if I'd admit I was wrong". In addition - I've had communications with you in IRC, via private Messages, and email, and I told you _NOT_ to send private communications - not emails, not private Messages via the forums.

Now then, to reiterate - I find you to be duplicitous, a stone cold liar (as documented in a thread months ago), deceitful, and in general, a whining irritating self-righteous pompous snit.

I have no interest in "flaming" you, I have no interest in hearing from you, and I generally try to only respond to you when you start distorting the truth again.

Now, to politely use your acronyms, STFU and FOAD.

[Stormbinder]

To all fellow players who have expressed their support and appreciation:

I want to thank all of you. Your support is very important to me, and I really appreciate it. It makes me feel that the time and efforts to expose the cheater was well spend and apreciated by other Dom2 players. Thanks you guys.


As for my "editing" of the letter, as one or two people wrote here - frankly I don't think that these accusations are fair. First - I specifically said (in the part that was deleted by Zen together with letter) when I posted the letter that these are "excerpts" from the letter.

Second - I speciafically put "..." sign in few places where I cut unrelated text. I never did any other editing of course. Frankly I don't know what else could I possibly do to point out that I am posting excerpts, not the whole letter???

The only reason why I posted that letter in the first place was in respond to Zen's post, in which he said that Illwinter doesn't know yet if Norfleet has cheated or not, that it is not obvious to them or to him, and so on...

So I posted these expects that clearly show that at least KristoferO had no doubts whatsoever that Norfleet cheated, and that he thinks that for all other players it is just as obvious as well. I think it was very appropriate response, and I don't feel that I did something terribly unethicall here.

As for my "editing" - the only parts that I skiped was personal advice from KristofferO to myself, to "not brag" about the fact that I was right about Norfleet all along, and just relax and enjoy the results of what I have done. I skiped them in my post because they were personal and absolutely irrelivent to the fact that was being discussed at that moment, whihc is Norfleet's cheating. That's all.

BTW KristofferO, I actually thought about your advice seriosly and decided to take it to the hear when I've recieved your later. As anybody can see I haven't braged in any of the threads recently. (well, to be absolutely honest I did braged a littel bit once, but very shortly and two days ago, before that letter )

Instead I was staying calm and positive after Norfleet was finally busted, just as I intend to do in the future. And I wanted to thank KristofferO for his advice, because he was right of course. I also hope Kristoffer doesn't mind me posting these few expects from his latter, where he said that it is clear to Illwinter and should be clear to all players that the norfleet have cheated. Since then, both Jossef and KrisO have posted here on this thread saying just that, so it is not a question for anybody anymore.


Again, my deep thanks to everybody who expresed their suppost to me and for their kind words, in this thread and in others.

Feeling warn and cozy inside,
Stormbinder

[Esben Mose Hansen]

And once again Stormbinder displayed _his_ glaring lack of ethics / common courtesy, quoting a private email publicly, just as he used wiretaps to quote from conversations (ie, logged irc chats and publicly posted them, akin to illegally tapping a telephone line).

I never believed in hushing anything up. If somebody sent something to me, and I found reason to publish it, I would not hesitate to do so. I also routinely log IRC logs; while I have never had reason to publish such I would not hesitate to do so. To do otherwise would be dishonest and frankly --- wrong. I somebody wrote to me that he is cheating in a game, I would publish it without any hesitation.

So in conclusion, Stormbinder's only fallacy was a tendency to flame, a tendency he IMHO has out behind him. I believe in forgiveness where appropriate, and surely, Stormbinders transgression wasn't THAT bad.

I never believed in hushing anything up. If somebody sent something to me, and I found reason to publish it, I would not hesitate to do so. I also routinely log IRC logs; while I have never had reason to publish such I would not hesitate to do so. To do otherwise would be dishonest and frankly --- wrong. I somebody wrote to me that he is cheating in a game, I would publish it without any hesitation.

As you have seen things are edited, or 'not said' in order to provide things in a certain light or for a certain topic/conversation. This is a universal thing, not specifically one for this particular occasion/forum.

It's called 'in bad taste' and in general, if you are going to post a private Email, you post it in it's entirety without editing out anything you'd rather not mention or feel is irrelevant for such things.

Where you might be faultlessly honest (at least in your own opinion) there are countless others who are not or are not to the degree where they would do such things.

Like I said, not in this particular instance, but Online in general.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

As you have seen things are edited, or 'not said' in order to provide things in a certain light or for a certain topic/conversation. This is a universal thing, not specifically one for this particular occasion/forum.

I have not seen this; nor am I doubting it. I just reacted to the part about it being poor manners to publish private email --- I find this perfectly acceptable, with the obvious restrictions. I could not let this pass, and wanted to support Stormbinders action (not the editing, if any, but the publishing).

It's called 'in bad taste' and in general, if you are going to post a private Email, you post it in it's entirety without editing out anything you'd rather not mention or feel is irrelevant for such things.

As long as you do not misrepresent I find some omitting fine, especially for large texts. It is a better to err toward caution in this respect though.

Where you might be faultlessly honest (at least in your own opinion) there are countless others who are not or are not to the degree where they would do such things.

Nobody is honest, not completely. I do not believe the human mind can take that kind of honesty. I am not too good about being honest, either, but I do try. I also believe that people generally are dishonest to themselves more than to other people. This is certainly true for me.

Like I said, not in this particular instance, but Online in general.

This was the very context I was aiming at. Publishing emails are mostly ok, publishing IRC logs from public channels certainly are. I will defend this any time (that was supposed to be a joke about honesty).

As long as you do not misrepresent I find some omitting fine, especially for large texts. It is a better to err toward caution in this respect though.

That is exactly the reason that the person would want to omit or otherwise out of place put a statement as if applied to a directly different statement or feeling. Like taking a quote about say "This is the best game ever!" from 'Blizzard Executives' and applying it to Dom2. While they did say that one particular statement, it wasn't in regard what it was directed or USED to express a pov at (case in point, the Email quote in question).

Like I said, I don't think it's the absolutely most horrible thing in the world to do (though others feel this is tantamount to lying) and there is even a specific Flamer (from that one webpage) regarding it. I believe that it would be better to err on the side of honesty and not distortion or even worse, misrepresentation.

This was the very context I was aiming at. Publishing emails are mostly ok, publishing IRC logs from public channels certainly are. I will defend this any time (that was supposed to be a joke about honesty).

Honestly! Such jokes!

Now that I've had a chance to reread this, (I was half asleep from waking up earlier, so I have adjusted my response to accurately reflect what is written instead of my half-asleep understanding)

To Zen: I didn't suggested to you that you ban Norfleet before the Illwinter would take a chance to look and decide what's going on here. But I do feel that it may not be the best solution in this situation to just lock the thread with no explanation, as it was another silly flamewar and nothing more, instead of at least saying something on this matter before you lock it, even like posting your personal opinion.

I closed it because it was going to *become* a silly flamewar. Because it was taking on the tendancies of it. And maybe I should let flames ride if it's cheating? Maybe, but I don't want to be quick to jump the gun on accusing or saying irrefutably such things happened or not, though in this case it may be obvious to all but a few. Here is from an earlier post about my personal opinion:

I don't think my personal opinion should be tacked on the end of every closed post. Since my personal opinion could be very much the opposite of the reason why the thread was closed down.

If you want my personal opinion on the subject. It is: Cheaters suck. I don't like them. But they happen, in every game you play. At least to some degree you can control such things, but as it is now I haven't found an excessive amount of cheating in Dom2 as opposed to say ... Blizzard games (For obvious reasons). I think it's personally very low to cheat, and to cheat in a forum that you seem to want and have a helpful presence within. I also think it's abhorable to use cheating against newbies, constantly, anhillating them constantly and without mercy by cheating when it's perfectly servicable and easy enough to do without cheating.

Sort of like murder is bad, but murdering a 2 year old kid is an uncommon sort of low bastard.

Now, with that said, I'm not going to foam around about it, just a sad fact of life.

After all you are the most experienced player around, not just a forum moderator. You have read yourself blatant lies that Norfleet said about this game, answering my questions. You have read the numbers that KristoferO and me posted on the board. Do you honestly think that there is any way short of cheating to have 5000 gems in such game by turn 23 ?!?

No I don't personally think so. But as I said previously that it may not be him alone, and I don't see how it can be done. That the game was tampered with is not an issue, that it was tampered with in favor of Norfleet or "for Norfleet" is not an issue. How he did it, and why to that extent are a few questions I have personally but yes, as far as I'm concerned Ermor cheated in that game and that game and Ermor was Norfleet. Conspiracy theories aside, I have no reason to think that Norfleet was not capable, had motivation and had previous record of doing such in the past.

But that's ok, I didn't expected anything else from him, so it doesn't bother me at all. But when instead of saying "thanks", you , the forum moderator and very dedicated Dom2 MP player on your own, keep calling me "another side of Norfleet's coin", as if it was me who had cheated, I do feel a bit hurt by it, frankly.

No, the other side of the coin as far as conversation and discussion about such things. We both know you have a tendancy to get yourself worked up on certain issues, this happens to be two of the main issues that you get worked up, combined! I never said you cheated, that you were even in the same Category as a cheater or that I do appreciate the fact that you have found enough proof to damn him for his actions and exposed him for cheating and thus tainting those who play the games he was in.

I don't think that somebody who exposed cheater, should be equaled with the cheater, just because that somebody was *really* hurt and irritated by this very subject of cheating, which happened to him in his own game, but he didn't have hard proof of it at that time. But if you really think that there is no real difference here between the cheater and the one who was cheated, and who spend a lot of time gathering and preparing all these evidence to expose cheater, to the benefit of the entire players MP community, I am not going to argue with you. I am leaving it up to you to decide.

I never said they were the same. I only said that you haven't seem to have given it enough time to really look into it, especially considering the forum switchover, differences in timezones, and a multitude of factors. I would hope you wouldn't think my objectivity and not instant judgement of ANYONE (including yourself, Norfleet, or any other number of people) is better than rash accustations.