Thank you Stormbinder!

[Esben Mose Hansen]

I'm not sure that going from a PbEM type game to a different style of gaming is a "fix".

The game could be identical in every single way from the player's perspective. The only difference is that all commands are executed by the server, instead of the client. So the client simply sends a list of commands he wants executed (Move commander A to province 2, cast spell X with commander B, alchemize 4 astral to water gems, etc.) and the server would check the orders and execute them (can A reach 2, are the gems available for both the spell X and the alchemy? Does command B know that spell? Does he have the correct paths?). See? No difference from the players perspective. The only difference is that cheat is impossible. If you don't believe, try me! Tell me how you would cheat with the above setup?

Yes that would allow for MANY things to be fixed if all actions were interactive at the server. Of course even more would be fixed if you just went all the way to an Online world environment. Of course then you have to shift attention from hex editing to packet editing. Everything has its pros and cons.

Everything IS interaction with the server TODAY --- that's why there is only one fatherland file. I'm not talking Online play.There are no cons, actually --- except that the game would need extensive refactoring, which is a showstopper for dom2.

If I were to make such a game, I would make at least these separate components:

• libdom2rules --- the actual game engine, which knows about gems, spell, movements and so on.
• dom2processor --- Uses libdomrules to processes turn files into new turn data files, ready to be sent to the client
• client --- Can represent the client
• ipserver --- Accepts files over IP, checks passwords and so on.
• mailsserver --- The same over SMTP or MTA or whatever.

The work is about the same, but using a software stack instead of one gigantic program makes every much more flexible.

[Arryn]

No offense intended to the IW folks, but the thing you must understand, Esben, is that IW does not have (AFAIK) any professional software engineers. Dom 2 has been created in the "spare" time of a few folks whose day jobs are something other than being programmers, game architects, graphics designers, network engineers, et cetera. It's actually remarkable that they've been able to do as well as they have given their relative lack of in-depth knowledge of professional computer game design (as compared to almost all other game dev shops) or even the inner workings of the coding tools they're using. I think you may be expecting too much from them, however nice your suggestions sound (at least they sound great to me). Perhaps if they become successful enough to consider giving up their day jobs, or hiring outside 'experts', then we might see the sort of polished product we'd love to have.

IW reminds me a lot of Paradox, who also began with 2 coders. After several years of popular products, they've grown to the point of recently soliciting for additional programmers. (Hopefully they've hired someone who actually has a clue on how to code a competent AI, and even more importantly, gotten a decent internal QA manager.) IW appears, to me, to be sort of following in the footsteps of Paradox. More or less. The largest difference is that I'm sure Strategy First has more money to throw at Paradox than Shrapnel has to throw at IW, since SF is a by far bigger publisher (nor better, just bigger). With more money, you can try to do more (or more difficult) things.

[Gandalf Parker]

No offense intended to the IW folks, but the thing you must understand, Esben, is that IW does not have (AFAIK) any professional software engineers. Dom 2 has been created in the "spare" time of a few folks whose day jobs are something other than being programmers, game architects, graphics designers, network engineers, et cetera.

Thank you for posting that.

Actually IW is 2 guys and I think only Johan K calls himself a programmer. Kristoffer O is a teacher and seems to be the source of the thematic research, graphics, etc.

[Arryn]

You're quite welcome, Gandalf.

Despite my saying that JK is not a "professional" programmer, he's apparently a better one than many of the CS-degreed migrant laborers (what I call the Indian and Chinese H-1Bs) I've had the dubious "pleasure" to work with. And, if one considers the term "professional" to mean that he gets paid for what he does, then JK is, indeed, a professional. Coding not being his day job notwithstanding.

Kudos to JK and KO.

Of course, my admiration for what they've done doesn't stop me from wishing IW had a professional GUI coder.

[Gandalf Parker]

Of course, my admiration for what they've done doesn't stop me from wishing IW had a professional GUI coder.

A professional GUI coder? Or a Windows GUI coder? (just razzing)

[Arryn]

A professional GUI coder? Or a Windows GUI coder? (just razzing)

I'd settle for someone who's not UI-phobic. (just razzing back)

[Annette]

Oh my word, Arryn. I usually don't get involved in these discussions, but your post caught my eye and I feel compelled to speak. I disagree that Illwinter may be compared to Paradox. Dominions 2 has been said to offer "the most gameplay of any 4X game available anywhere" (Computer Gaming World, Sept '04).

And please don't compare Shrapnel Games with Strategy First. Paradox has dumped SF - the grapevine intimates because of unpaid royalties (http://www.wargamer.com/news/news.asp?nid=1002).
Stardock left for that reason (http://www.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895&u=0). Just this week, LegendStudios posted on their forums:

"Strategy First Inc, our North America publisher, have not paid us a single cent since we sign our contract and what's more, they have not spend anything in ads and the distribution of the game is even worse (that's why the servers were not very busy). There is no way to get the game in big stores and even Amazon takes 2 months to deliver! Completely amazing.

So due to this situation and the economical problem we are suffering, we are forced to close our servers for Internet gaming. We have tried to arrange a solution with Strategy First but they refuse to find a solution."
(http://www.lsgames.com/wartimes/eng/...opic.php?t=243)

Don't be fooled by appearances. It's not how much money (or the number of programmers) a company has that makes it successful. It's understanding your product, your market and your customers that's key to successful publishing. And it's creativity, intellegence and dedication which make development teams great.

Just my dollar and 2 cents...

[Arryn]

Sorry, Annette. I had absolutely no intention of offending. Personally, I detest Strategy First. They have lousy customer support. Perhaps I should have made that point in my post. Another SF case of unpaid royalties involves JA2:Wildfire.

And I agree with:

It's not how much money (or the number of programmers) a company has that makes it successful. It's understanding your product, your market and your customers that's key to successful publishing. And it's creativity, intellegence and dedication which make development teams great.

But in all honesty, computer gaming is a business, and money does matter. Having more of it certainly doesn't hurt. Assuming that the points you mention are covered first, of course. Case in point for a failure on all counts is Atari, Quicksilver, and MOO3. Large budget and bad everything else. I won't rehash the details, they are very well known.

BTW, my comparison of IW to Paradox was intended to show how a small dev shop can grow. IW is by far a better shop than Paradox. And Paradox is better than most others. (What that says about most others I'll leave to your imagination.)

[Gandalf Parker]

Oh my word, Arryn. I usually don't get involved in these discussions, but your post caught my eye and I feel compelled to speak.

Heehee Arryn brought Annette out of lurk mode. I can just picture her hands on her hips and fire in her eyes. That was interesting info though.

[Arryn]

Heehee Arryn brought Annette out of lurk mode. I can just picture her hands on her hips and fire in her eyes. That was interesting info though.

Nice to know I serve a purpose. hehe

Indeed it was. I happen to play HoI, and I'm curious as to what this means for HoI2 which is in dev now? I hadn't known that Paradox had dumped SF. Good for Paradox. If they have any brains they'll sign with Shrapnel. Or at least Matrix (cough, choke).