lategame balance . are my concerns true ?

[Boron]

[quote]
Graeme Dice said:

Boron said:

Your vampire horde is also a rather late game strategy, so you really should include everything else your enemies would be able to throw at you.

it depends who uses it .
but as mictlan/abysia i can bloodhunt early and start early summoning my first ones .
especially mictlan is a formidable clamhoarder too .
so their blood income will always be huge .

and there are really few better uses in the long run for 100 astral pearls than wishing for blood .
250 blood are almost 5 vampire lords who are quite formidable on their own already .

if you wish scs you need to GoR so lets say either you get 1 unequipped sc or 5 vampire lords .
you need to equip the sc normally .
so lets add about 50 gems at least to equip.

i think it is fair to say then at least 6 vampire lords vs 1 equipped + GoRed sc .
if the vampire lords only summon 10 turns vampires it is already 6 vampire lords + 60 vampires vs the 1 sc .

the more time i have the more i grow out of control with the vampire strat then.
as long as i stay in own dominion you can't kill them with anything .


so you almost can't attack me in my own territory and everytime i get positive dominion in one of your provinces which neighbors me i can conquer this one easy again .

and i can throw ghost riders / flames from the sky etc. on your provinces with effect or make raids with special forces for this purpose .

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
the more time i have the more i grow out of control with the vampire strat then.

This is true for any strategy.

as long as i stay in own dominion you can't kill them with anything .

Better hope you don't run into Marignon then, because any province they take will only stay in your dominion for one turn.

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

Better hope you don't run into Marignon then, because any province they take will only stay in your dominion for one turn.

true but marignon is relative 1 dimensional and hard to play .
in the mp games i have played until now or are playing marignon was never a top 5 choice and i never saw them winning a mp game in which i am in so far .


another thing you wrote that you can decimate my vampires with flames from the sky too .
if you kill them in my dominion they are respawned in my capitol .
so you invested 20/40/60 or more fire gems for just 1-3 turns delayment until they arrive at the front again .
not a really useful use of flames from the sky imho .


the 2 nations which i think are best for my hoardstrat are atm abysia and caelum .
abysia earlier , caelum later because there midlevel alteration/conjuration/construction are my research priorities earlygame-midgame .

[DLC1]

i dont think your concerns are all that grave, vampires are generally weak, any kind of devil with the late game blood 9 summons are better.
cept mebbe frost devils

[Boron]

DLC1 said:
i dont think your concerns are all that grave, vampires are generally weak, any kind of devil with the late game blood 9 summons are better.

you neglect 1 thing there :
you pay 55 blood for 1 vampire lord
you pay 50 blood for 7+1/lvl above storm demons / devils etc. with the lvl 9 summon


after 20 turns 1 vampire lord has generated 20 vampires .

so the vampire lord beats after 20 turns with his 20 vampires which are for free surely the devils / storm demons etc.

in a 1on1 a vampire loses of course against a devil / storm demon .

but after 20 turns it is rather 3 vs 1 and after 40 turns rather 6 vs 1 for the same cost .
+ you have further costs to get a leader for your devils / storm demons .


and finally vampires are blood 7 so you can start casting them earlier . once you have your first vampire lord giving him a death staff he can then chainsummon further vampire lords .
getting a summoner for e.g. storm demons with blood5air2 is much harder .

[Arryn]

DLC1 said:
i dont think your concerns are all that grave, vampires ...

A grave concern about vampires is an interesting pun.

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
true but marignon is relative 1 dimensional and hard to play.
in the mp games i have played until now or are playing marignon was never a top 5 choice and i never saw them winning a mp game in which i am in so far .

Marignon isn't that hard to play. They just need to figure out a good strategy for the lategame, since they are about the second most powerful nation in the very early game.

Astral fires can deal with flame immune units, and they have no trouble getting that spell. They also have a fairly easy time with covering the battlefield with fire, which vampires will fall to quite easily. Once they capture your province, four or five high inquisitors will bring the dominion down to zero in a single turn, and then you can't bring your vampires into it anymore.

another thing you wrote that you can decimate my vampires with flames from the sky too .
if you kill them in my dominion they are respawned in my capitol .

You would time the flames from the sky with a major attack so that the enemy would lose territory.

[quote]

so you invested 20/40/60 or more fire gems for just 1-3 turns delayment until they arrive at the front again .

Well, take Machaka for instance, they have little problem with throwing more than 100 fire gems a turn at any given problem by the time you'd reach turn 100. Hit a province you're invading with 5 flames from the sky, and there won't be many vampires left on defense. Hit a besieging force of vampires with that same 5 spells, and they won't be able to breach your walls anytime soon.

[tinkthank]

Boron said:

true but marignon is relative 1 dimensional and hard to play .

in the mp games i have played until now or are playing marignon was never a top 5 choice and i never saw them winning a mp game in which i am in so far .

Hey Boron, I agree with almost everything you have said and analyzed here. Caelum and Abysia incredibly strong late game with these strats.

But... didn't I beat you in an MP game with me playing Marignon?

[Boron]

tinkthank said:

Hey Boron, I agree with almost everything you have said and analyzed here. Caelum and Abysia incredibly strong late game with these strats.

But... didn't I beat you in an MP game with me playing Marignon?

lol yeah sure but this is what i have said anyways
i said marignon will probably rush 1-2 opponents to death but then a stronger opponent will kill you in mid-lategame anyways


since in a 2 player game on urgaia i am the only opponent this is different though


it is for games with 1-4 players and less than 100 provinces vanheim , marignon , ulm etc. are extremely strong .
in midsized games like inland they still have a good chance but it is already quite hard to win with marignon especially there .

in orania / karan / faerun / world map etc. it is almost impossible to win with vanheim / marignon etc .
the good thing though is that if you take d3 on your pretender midgame with spectres even marignon can reach enough magic flexibility to start clamhoarding / fetish hording / blood hunt etc.


so with getting magic flexibility by opponent rushing and getting their searched provinces and then midgame relying on spectres/indy mages for flexibility even marignon is probably quite good lategame too .

i think though vampires are strong and so are devils as graeme pointed out i saw it all in all though a bit too narrow .

marignons knights of the chalice + flaming arrows x-bows are quite dangerous too .
sure especially by lightning battlemagic they get killed quite well .

but vampires get killed by wither bones quite well .

devils get killed quite well by staff of storms + wrathful skies + lightning battle spells .



so everywhere is a counter .


the only thing which makes vampires so special is their immortality .

in a 1on1 they lose though probably against fire blessed knights of the chalice / vans too .


the only "sad" thing is that most national troops are kinda useless .
all archers with wind guide / flaming arrows are not bad , but friendly fire is an issue .
most blessable troops are good , expect vans + were jaguars all are capitol only though afaik .

finally the berserk troops ( minotaurs ) and jotunheims troops because they are so tough are good .


almost all other troops are somewhat really bad though which is about 3/4 .
as pickles said in the other thread as ulm especially i don't really care which of my 10 different HI's i produce since they are all very very similiar .
they are unfortunately though so slow that their use is anyway limited .
i prefer x-bows/sappers + knights over all kinds of ulm HI because the knights can luckily reach at least the enemy archers/mages with luck quite quick and the sappers/x-bows can do some damage .
the hi though is just too slow , gets decimated extremely by magic damage spells already earlygame , then is swarmed and routed .
enc 6-10 + move of 5-9 makes the ulmish hi ****ty.
att is "only"10 but with fatigue it drops a bit to 7-9 depending on fatigue .

so the ulmish infantry will be quite fatigued when reaching finally the enemy + be at least 3-4 battle rounds under full fire .
even early game a caelum army with just quickness + aim + lightning will decimate them pretty quick .
midgame either massfalsehorrorspawning or massorblighntnings will be a pain .

[Boron]

tinkthank said:

Hey Boron, I agree with almost everything you have said and analyzed here. Caelum and Abysia incredibly strong late game with these strats.

But... didn't I beat you in an MP game with me playing Marignon?

lol yeah sure but this is what i have said anyways
i said marignon will probably rush 1-2 opponents to death but then a stronger opponent will kill you in mid-lategame anyways


since in a 2 player game on urgaia i am the only opponent this is different though


it is for games with 1-4 players and less than 100 provinces vanheim , marignon , ulm etc. are extremely strong .
in midsized games like inland they still have a good chance but it is already quite hard to win with marignon especially there .

in orania / karan / faerun / world map etc. it is almost impossible to win with vanheim / marignon etc .
the good thing though is that if you take d3 on your pretender midgame with spectres even marignon can reach enough magic flexibility to start clamhoarding / fetish hording / blood hunt etc.


so with getting magic flexibility by opponent rushing and getting their searched provinces and then midgame relying on spectres/indy mages for flexibility even marignon is probably quite good lategame too .

i think though vampires are strong and so are devils as graeme pointed out i saw it all in all though a bit too narrow .

marignons knights of the chalice + flaming arrows x-bows are quite dangerous too .
sure especially by lightning battlemagic they get killed quite well .

but vampires get killed by wither bones quite well .

devils get killed quite well by staff of storms + wrathful skies + lightning battle spells .



so everywhere is a counter .


the only thing which makes vampires so special is their immortality .

in a 1on1 they lose though probably against fire blessed knights of the chalice / vans too .


the only "sad" thing is that most national troops are kinda useless .
all archers with wind guide / flaming arrows are not bad , but friendly fire is an issue .
most blessable troops are good , expect vans + were jaguars all are capitol only though afaik .

finally the berserk troops ( minotaurs ) and jotunheims troops because they are so tough are good .


almost all other troops are somewhat really bad though which is about 3/4 .
as pickles said in the other thread as ulm especially i don't really care which of my 10 different HI's i produce since they are all very very similiar .
they are unfortunately though so slow that their use is anyway limited .
i prefer x-bows/sappers + knights over all kinds of ulm HI because the knights can luckily reach at least the enemy archers/mages with luck quite quick and the sappers/x-bows can do some damage .
the hi though is just too slow , gets decimated extremely by magic damage spells already earlygame , then is swarmed and routed .
enc 6-10 + move of 5-9 makes the ulmish hi ****ty.
att is "only"10 but with fatigue it drops a bit to 7-9 depending on fatigue .

so the ulmish infantry will be quite fatigued when reaching finally the enemy + be at least 3-4 battle rounds under full fire .
even early game a caelum army with just quickness + aim + lightning will decimate them pretty quick .
midgame either massfalsehorrorspawning or massorblighntnings will be a pain .