Slynky's Demise

[geoschmo]

No problem Tesco. You have actually done a better job of describing what I was trying to say myself.

Lord Chane, I know you didn't say that specifically I was a bad person. What you were doing was making a broad generalization. You were saying if a person would do A then therefore they would also do B. Since I admit freely that I do A, by your logic you must think I am capable of doing B.

You don't owe me an appology. You didn't say I would do B. I was being overly sensitive. Sorry about that.

[Lord Chane]

geoschmo said:
Lord Chane, I know you didn't say that specifically I was a bad person. What you were doing was making a broad generalization. You were saying if a person would do A then therefore they would also do B. Since I admit freely that I do A, by your logic you must think I am capable of doing B.

You don't owe me an appology. You didn't say I would do B. I was being overly sensitive. Sorry about that.

I'm not making a generalization so much as I am connecting one set of observed behavior to a set of expected behavior. In my experience those who truly espouse the win at all costs philosophy are also likely, but not certain, to want to win at all costs in the real world. Of course not all people who would win at all costs in a game would also do so in the real world. But how can I tell one from the other? Let me couch it another way, and this is just an example to make a point not an attempt to connect anyone to what I'm describing. Let's say you and I are walking down the street and we see a skinhead in a Nazi uniform. Are you saying that based on your knowledge of Nazi, neo-Nazi, behavior that you wouldn't develop a certain set of expectations about the guy? You'd feel perfectly comfortable walking up to him, talking to him, having some sort of meaningful interaction with him? I suspect you wouldn't. I know I wouldn't. Of course it's entirely possible that he's on his way to a costume party. Or he could be an actor heading to a set. Maybe even a teacher heading to school (yes, I had a humanities teacher in high school who came to school once or twice a year in a Nazi uniform, playing the part of a die hard Nazi to give his classes first hand knowledge of what it'd be like to be a Nazi - all this with the blessing of the school district). But from a distance and without any additional information it's pretty much impossible to tell. Some players who would stab an ally in a game of SEIV are just role playing. Others would likely stab a friend or collegue in the back in real life as readily as they would an ally in SEIV. I think odds are that a person who plays that way in a game is more likely, although not assured, to behave the same way in real life.

I believe it's an established fact that the anonymity the internet provides encourages people to speak more freely. Simply put, people feel freer to speak their mind in email and in forums when they don't have to confront the person they are talking to, the recipient may not be able to identify them at all, and there is a vastly reduced chance of incuring consequences for what they say or the way they say it. If we can accept that as valid, then I submit that a person who speaks very carefully on the internet is also more likely to speak very carefully in person. It would then seem to follow that a person who speaks with total disregard in person would be vastly more likely to "let it all hang out" on the internet. So doesn't it seem reasonable that a person who would behave badly in real life is more likely to do so in a game, where there are fewer ramifications for their actions?

[geoschmo]

Lord Chane said:
Let me couch it another way, and this is just an example to make a point not an attempt to connect anyone to what I'm describing. Let's say you and I are walking down the street and we see a skinhead in a Nazi uniform. Are you saying that based on your knowledge of Nazi, neo-Nazi, behavior that you wouldn't develop a certain set of expectations about the guy? You'd feel perfectly comfortable walking up to him, talking to him, having some sort of meaningful interaction with him? I suspect you wouldn't. I know I wouldn't.

What! Now you are calling me a Nazi?!?

No, of course if I encountered someone dressed like this in a public place I would have concerns. And it would be for good reason. People often dress in such a way to demonstrate their affinity for that particular set of beliefs. Not everyone that dresses that way believes that way, and I wouldn't support tossing people in jail based on the way they dress, but it would give me a preconceived notion about the person.

But again, your example is flawed. We are talking about a game, while you are giving real-world analogies. If I was playing a strategy set in WWII era earth, and an opponent chose to play as a Nazi country, I would not take this as an indication that they were sypathetic to those political beliefs.

[Lord Chane]

geoschmo said:
No, of course if I encountered someone dressed like this in a public place I would have concerns. And it would be for good reason. People often dress in such a way to demonstrate their affinity for that particular set of beliefs. Not everyone that dresses that way believes that way, and I wouldn't support tossing people in jail based on the way they dress, but it would give me a preconceived notion about the person.

The preconceived notion is all I was going for.

geoschmo said:
But again, your example is flawed. We are talking about a game, while you are giving real-world analogies.

As I said to Tesco in my Last post to him, you apparently see a clear separation between the player and the position they play in the game, even in non-RP games. I don't and no one has offered any objective evidence that there is such a separation. I submit to you that it is pretty much impossible not to carry over some of our personalities into the game. If you agree that players carry over even one small attribute from their real personality into the game, then you invalidate the clear separation hypothesis. It's then a matter of determining how much of the player's real personality leaks over into their in-game personna. And I disagree about my examples being flawed. My point was that people have preconceived notions and that they have them in games as well as out.

geoschmo said:
If I was playing a strategy set in WWII era earth, and an opponent chose to play as a Nazi country, I would not take this as an indication that they were sypathetic to those political beliefs.

No, neither would I. Any more than I would think that an actor who plays Hitler is a Nazi sympathizer or that one who plays Jesus is a godly or devoutly religious man. It's a role. I've already said that I've no problem with what someone does in a role-playing game. They should play their role. I played a Nazgul position in a Lord of the Rings play-by-mail game once and I tried to stay in character. Would anyone trust one of the Dark Lord's servants? But unless the other game players had never read, seen, or heard of LOTR before, then they knew what to expect. Is every game of SEIV an RP game? In my opinion no and that notion is supported by the fact that some games announce themselves as being RP and others don't. If they were all RP, then there's be no reason to announce some games as RP. So for me there's a clear difference between someone playing a role and just being a player in a game.

[geoschmo]

Lord Chane said:
As I said to Tesco in my Last post to him, you apparently see a clear separation between the player and the position they play in the game, even in non-RP games. I don't and no one has offered any objective evidence that there is such a separation.

I do agree there is a point at which behavior of players in a game is reflective of their character, or lack of it out of the game. And in that regard your examples do have some merit. There is a line that a person can cross while playing a game which will cause me to question them as a person. Where we disagree I suppose is exactly where that line is drawn.

I would like to keep it simple and just say that for me the line is cheating. Of course that would require everyone to have the same definition of what is cheating, and then we start our debate all over again. I guess maybe that's the point you've been trying to make all along.

[Lord Chane]

geoschmo said:
I do agree there is a point at which behavior of players in a game is reflective of their character, or lack of it out of the game. And in that regard your examples do have some merit. There is a line that a person can cross while playing a game which will cause me to question them as a person. Where we disagree I suppose is exactly where that line is drawn.

Exactly!

geoschmo said:
I would like to keep it simple and just say that for me the line is cheating. Of course that would require everyone to have the same definition of what is cheating, and then we start our debate all over again. I guess maybe that's the point you've been trying to make all along.

Well, one of the points.