I suck with Pythium ... please help!

[Thufir]

I'm playing Pythium right now in an MP game, and it's been great to have this thread resurface, with new comments. In the game, I'm doing reasonably well, but I've made more than my share of tactical mistakes, leading to the following questions.

Cainehill said:
About hydras : I find the full grown ones very useful, with the right troop placement, choice of leaders, battle magic. The hatchlings? Even better - they make the _best_ shish kebabs!

1) I believe that hydras are effective (played well), but like others I'm having some difficulty in using them cost-effectively. Am I correct in thinking that the main reason why you want hatchlings is simply to make the group bigger at something less than the cost of the full hydras?

If so there must be some more or less optimal ratio between hydras and hatchlings - I'd guess around 1::4. Does that sound reasonable?

2) I've found it very easy to use Principe cost effectively - as such I'm probably over using them. This thread has given me plenty of ideas about using hydras/hatchlings, but what about Emerald Guards? Does anyone out there particularly like them? At the least they seem like good body guards for your Arch Theurgs, but while I haven't tried it yet, it seems like they might be worth paying for in larger numbers as a line behind the Principe, or perhaps mixed in with Principe.

3) On Serpent Cataphracts, they seem like really good troops, but it's always a tough choice when you know you can get so many more Principe. So far I have put together a few times Groups of 5-7 Cataphracts, and they have been effective, but I wonder if I'm underutilizing them. Also, perhaps because my Groups were too small they didn't survive as long as I might have hoped (although in at least one case they took out a goodly number of devils before routing).

Anyone have any pointers on the minimal size of a Cataphract squad? Has anyone out there found it useful to mix other units in with the Cataphracts? Has anyone out there found the Serpent Lord worth paying for?

4) Currently I'm fighting Abysia, and I've found it particularly difficult to kill devils. I guess I'm doing ok, as the number of devils that are showing up is reducing, but still any pointers on countering devils would be appreciated! And especially pointers on eliminating a raid army of devils plus demonbred would be most appreciated!

[archaeolept]

group of theurgs (say 6+)really preferably w/ spell foci, and communicants(8), fronted by principe w/ some mixed in as theurg guards

quickness, communion master, banish demon X3
(have one scripted to cast the occasional fanaticism too, and one scripted to luck, twist of fate, charge body, astral shield, to buff the commies). more theurgs and communicants are always good.

just make sure to have enough principe or hastati as well to engage the devils.

summon up some false horrors too - no need to communion whichever theurg you assign to that task.

[Thufir]

thanks for the info Arryn, Archaeolept.

archaeolept said:
group of theurgs (say 6+)really preferably w/ spell foci, and communicants(8), fronted by principe w/ some mixed in as theurg guards

quickness, communion master, banish demon X3
(have one scripted to cast the occasional fanaticism too, and one scripted to luck, twist of fate, charge body, astral shield, to buff the commies). more theurgs and communicants are always good.

just make sure to have enough principe or hastati as well to engage the devils.

summon up some false horrors too - no need to communion whichever theurg you assign to that task.

This sounds like excellent advice, and good detailed suggestions on scripting. Assembling this force, and have it be in the right place and the right time (given the strat move of 1 for Arch Theurgs), is a little tricky.

It'd be cool to have this kind of force teleport in somewhere, along with a teleporting/cloud trapezing SC or two. I've tried combining CoW with Arch Theurg teleport, but that doesn't work too well as the CoW hawks rout so quickly against devils.

[archaeolept]

not arch-theurgs, unless you have some special need for their communioned random - say a 1N arch-theurg, communioned, can cast relief x 5

[Thufir]

archaeolept said:
not arch-theurgs, unless you have some special need for their communioned random - say a 1N arch-theurg, communioned, can cast relief x 5

Doh! That makes much more sense. All though it probably indicates I've been under recruiting theurgs, and over recruiting arch theurgs. I like the idea of using a 1N arch theurg, communioned, to get access to relief tho.

[Huzurdaddi]

I've found it very easy to use Principe cost effectively - as such I'm probably over using them.

I have the same problem. They are so good that it's hard to stop using them. They really are excellent troops.

hat about Emerald Guards?

Well their stats are fantastic. But their strat move of 1 worries me. As such I never build them. Too bad, since they are so excellent.

Currently I'm fighting Abysia, and I've found it particularly difficult to kill devils.

Indeed that is why I made this post originally. While I was killing the devils at a great rate in the game ( mostly due to errors on the other player's side ) I knew that once he got his act together I was cooked. There really was little I could do to stop them.

All I can say is that nifel flames and shimmering fields are your friends. Those two spells kick *** a little, although they are expensive.

Also falling frost does hurt the devils and that worked somewhat ok. So quickness, communion master, with at least 8 or even better 16 communicants, and falling frost x3 hurts the devils.

But devils are *hard* to kill. They are one amazing troop. And they are basically free. I find that the combination of great SC's and devils make blood empires really hard to combat if they get rolling.

quickness, communion master, banish demon X3

I'll be honest here. I've never tried that. But I have to ask: have you? I mean devils have an MR of 17 which is what gives Pythium fits since a lot of Pythium's battle magic has an MR check. I can see it working, but if that works I think that mass soul slay would work just as well. Perhaps I'm wrong. I would love to hear how you got it working.

not arch-theurgs, unless you have some special need for their communioned random - say a 1N arch-theurg, communioned, can cast relief x 5

That random is golden for Pythium it's true. There are so many possibilities that really can make battles easier. It's too bad that Pythium's magic is so painfully locked into 3 paths. But if they had magic like arco with the very cheap communicant it would be too powerful ( but oh so fun to play ).

[archaeolept]

w/ spell foci and normal positive magic MR subtraction, the devils will have an effective MR of 12. that's not so hot, and they'll be taking serious losses from say 5 quickened theurgs, w/ one theurg casting buffs.

the real advantage of banish demon is that it costs no fatigue, and so the theurg/communicant machine will Last longer. and principe hold up pretty well.

as well, the buffed communicants will do a very good job soaking up attacks from the devils: luck and twist of fate will mean that they will survive on average 5 attacks; astral shield depends upon the level of the caster (5) and i think the spell foci might well still add in, which would lead to a number of turns of paralysis on top of this...

after scripting finishes they may well cast enslave mind or soul slay, which will have somewhat lower penetration but still be fairly effective.

[Huzurdaddi]

Oh and I am playing Pythium in my most recent game ( Boron's game on mosehansen ).

I'm going to do my usual expansion with principes who are etherial. It hurts your research since you have to send out 3-5 casters with your army but it seems to make a decent sized difference.

After that I can switch to mind-burn/Smite based armies for a few turns and then to soul slay armies. That should Last until turn 25-30. Assuming I live that long. But indeps are set somewhat high so I hope that most people will be happy killing them for a while.

The question is what to do after that. I guess you have to rush to AQ ( which probably means getting them before this point ). I really don't know what to do.

[Thufir]

Huzurdaddi said:

I'm going to do my usual expansion with principes who are etherial. It hurts your research since you have to send out 3-5 casters with your army but it seems to make a decent sized difference.

How do you do that? Are you saying 3-5 theurgs, casting body ethereal, placed in and around a principe squad, will make it mostly ethereal?

That does sounds like a neat idea for early game - I'll have to try that next time I play Pythium.

[BigDaddy]

I use hordes of emerald guards because they die far less against indies and rarely rout (better armor, morale, hps, attack, weapon). They are slow though, use lots or resources and carry no javelins. They can often take lance attacks. I often select fortified city and prod 3 so i can churn more out by turn 5-6 when i have all my neighbors. I find my extreme growth rate to compensate for the lack of sites to hire communicants. Has anyone else tried this?

Emerald Lords have 17 defence skill (15 attack) and rarely die when spells aren't involved. Arm them, give them a small guard, and have them kill rear mages.

Rainbow mages rock with pytium becuase a 4S arch theurg with an astral cap can make a ring of wizardry. Then you shouldn't have any trouble making items or casting spells with your well thought out rainbow. I ussually just take 4S on my rainbow pretender for this reason.

From what i can tell Pythium is about rapid early expansion, even the computer expands rapidly. Against independent 9's emerald guards are the best, except that pythium has assasins.

I've only played against 1 human opponent is several MP games, and I wouldn't use emerald guards to actually attack enemy players with mages, but i wouldn't advise principes for this either. If i was going to attack enemy mages with normal units i would prefer emerald guards though, because of their higher prot, hp, and morale.