I suck with Pythium ... please help!

[Graeme Dice]

archaeolept said:
false horrors and those who overuse them suck

I think that raising their required path to air 3 would help a great deal.

[archaeolept]

yeah 3 is a good choice

my suggestion was A2 and 20 fat which is pretty similar

zen's suggesion was A2 and 25 fat

I think truper wanted them to be A6 and 100 fatigue or something...



though really the worst offender by far is Caelum, so I get around that just by banning their feathery little asses

;p

[Truper]

Heh - a guy needs a chance to rave once in a while I think I may have mentioned 100 fatigue, but the A6 is an exaggeration

The problem as it stands now is that quickened Seraphs can cast 2 False Horrors per round until they pass out - and they can do it for somewhere around 12 rounds (exact calculations are hard, since I don't have a formula for the fatigue reduction of magic dominions, which are common - and also because after the scripts run out, the Seraph will mix in the occasional Phantasmal Warrior or a spell like Charge Body). Then when they *do* finally exhaust themselves, they wake after a one or two rounds, and spam another 2 horrors. It wouldn't be that great a problem, if one had any way to get things to attack mages, but in my experience, no matter what you have on attack rear, those things will prefer to attack anything *but* mages, no matter how relatively harmless the things they're attacking.

There are things which will defeat a horror-spam, but those things are much more expensive than a Seraph and his 5 archers scattered about the field, in one way or another.

Adding insult to injury is the way a Caelum Horrifying Horrors strategy hangs together. To get horrors, you need to research alteration. Alteration is the primary path requirement for the all-too-common Quickness/Mistform/Mirror-Image/Invulnerability SC pretender - which Caelum can afford better than most nations.

My considered suggestion, as opposed to my bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again sarcastic suggestion, is that the path should be left at A1, so that False Horrors would still be available to say Vanherses or mages with a random in air, but that the fatigue should be raised to 30.

[Huzurdaddi]

The problem as it stands now is that quickened Seraphs can cast 2 False Horrors per round until they pass out

You see I can never set that up. My seraphs cast it 4 times ( as scripted ) but then do random stuff. It's still *very* powerful no doubt. But if I could make then do it x12 it would be FAR more powerful.

That's also why I'm not a huge fan of the fatigue cost increase since you could still do it x4. I kind of the A3 requirement. Of course Caelum could still do it then and it would only be 75% more expensive. Perhaps A3 and more fatigue.

[Kung_Fu]

Truper said:My considered suggestion, as opposed to my bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again sarcastic suggestion, is that the path should be left at A1, so that False Horrors would still be available to say Vanherses or mages with a random in air, but that the fatigue should be raised to 30.

This would not stop your bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again feelings.

For your amusement:

False Horror
Code:

---

Lvl of Air     Base Fat  w/Storm Power  Casts to 100 (4Enc)

Base Spell     10        5               20



Truper (1Air)  30        15              5.26

Archae (1Air)  --        20              4.16

Zen (1Air)     --        30              2.94



Truper (2Air)  15        10              10

Archae (2Air)  20        10              10

Zen (2Air)     25        12.5            8



Truper (3Air)  10        7.5             8.69

Archae (3Air)  10        7.5             8.69

Zen (3Air)     12.5      8.3             8.1

---

Compare with:
Raise Skeletons
Code:

---

Death    Base Fatigue  Casts to 100 (4 Enc)

2        40            2.27

3        20            4.16

4        10            7.14

---

Of course the # of effects is different, 5 -> 1. Yet it seems odd, that Air should have the ability to battlefield summon better than Death. While False Horrors have their weaknesses, so do Undead. The only other alternative is Elementals which are by and large gem unefficient because of poor AI.

To those who cry "Your Kung-Fu is weak! Death also has a 1 Death summoning spell" I would remind you it's summon effect is 1, and it's fatigue is 30.

Taking into account the differences in statistics of False Horrors, School, and ultimately Level of Spell (Alteration 6) it is not grossly overpowered, but I do not see your suggestion giving you any relief. In your example, even a level 1 (with storm power, and if you are being spammed then you are inextricably having a Staff of Storms used against you) It takes 4 turns of unconsiousness before being able to churn out another.

Take into account a Magic 3 Enviroment (a 30% Reduction in Fatigue Cost), you suddenly are in very much the same predicament, with all those charming level 1 Air casters (Harab Seraphs?) as you were before. Also Air already has a very decent 1Air spell in Orb Lightning, why do they need another? I have yet to see any other school of magic have such versatility with such cheap mages, allowing even sages and randoms to produce terrifying results.

If I had a choice between the 3 suggestions, I would choose either A.) Archae (if I wanted no real change other than requiring a Storm in place to cast the spell, and a slight fatigue bump. or B.) Zen's to drastically tone down the speed at which lower end Air Users can deliver False Horrors, but allow it to be a factor for high level air Users or perhaps communion.

[Truper]

Your Kung-Fu is weak! The numbers above aren't taking casting either quickness or summon storm power into account, and a horror-spammer would prefer *not* to have a storm in place, since horrors fly. Then somebody has to either cast the storm, or be holding a Staff of Storms, either of which is going to increase the cost of the strategy significantly, and require more research before it can be implemented.

And the true terror of the Caelum Horror-spam is not that it can be used to win large battles, but that single Seraphs, or sometimes pairs, can fan out over an entire empire in a matter of just a few turns, taking every province not defended by a major army. They require no gems or items to do it, and Seraphs are notoriously cheap. All they require is a handful of flying troops - just enough to distract the defenders until the spam gets started.

[Kel]

That seems more like a problem with seraphs, though. Seraphs are pretty good at making normal troops rout. Horrors might be the best way but not the only way.

Not that I am taking a side against seraphs, I am just pointing out that seraphs would still be able to fan out and raid many provinces at once, even without horrors.

- Kel

[Stormbinder]

Truper said:
Heh - a guy needs a chance to rave once in a while I think I may have mentioned 100 fatigue, but the A6 is an exaggeration

The problem as it stands now is that quickened Seraphs can cast 2 False Horrors per round until they pass out - and they can do it for somewhere around 12 rounds (exact calculations are hard, since I don't have a formula for the fatigue reduction of magic dominions, which are common - and also because after the scripts run out, the Seraph will mix in the occasional Phantasmal Warrior or a spell like Charge Body). Then when they *do* finally exhaust themselves, they wake after a one or two rounds, and spam another 2 horrors. It wouldn't be that great a problem, if one had any way to get things to attack mages, but in my experience, no matter what you have on attack rear, those things will prefer to attack anything *but* mages, no matter how relatively harmless the things they're attacking.

There are things which will defeat a horror-spam, but those things are much more expensive than a Seraph and his 5 archers scattered about the field, in one way or another.

Adding insult to injury is the way a Caelum Horrifying Horrors strategy hangs together. To get horrors, you need to research alteration. Alteration is the primary path requirement for the all-too-common Quickness/Mistform/Mirror-Image/Invulnerability SC pretender - which Caelum can afford better than most nations.

My considered suggestion, as opposed to my bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again sarcastic suggestion, is that the path should be left at A1, so that False Horrors would still be available to say Vanherses or mages with a random in air, but that the fatigue should be raised to 30.

Truper is absolutely right.

I did some experiments with False Horrors and posted results in the thread about a month ago. Single quickned serpah with no troops can reliably rout 20 Jotuns PD, not to mention other weaker PD.


Same goes for most average morale soldiers. What worse, Sermon of Courage doesn't seem to help. Or it helps so little it's virtually impossible to notice. In another experiment I've added level 3 prist chain casting Sermon of courage. The large PD troops routed exactly the same due to fear aura of FHs from the single seraph.


Comaparing Summon Lesser Horror with other battle summons is not really valid without taking into account the Fear Aura. Unlike other summons, false horrors hardly kill or even wound anyone. Yet they rout 10x their number of regular morale soldiers with ease. Combining with cheap caleum mages and ability to fly and strike anywhere, it is a bit too much IMHO.

(an yes, there are countertactics of course, but the ammount of efforts and resourses needed to balance single seraph with easely reseached spell is very disproportional)


So I agree with Truper and others and I think something need to be done about it. Either Sermon of Courage need to be able to cope better with Fear Auras, or Fear aura of LH need to be reduced, or price of the spell increase. I would not want to see it nerfed into obvliion by any means, it is cool spell, but as it is now it is a bit too uch, especially for Caelum, who are already great riders and one of the strongest nation.


Just my two cents.

[Cainehill]

Stormbinder said:
So I agree with Truper and others and I think something need to be done about it. Either Sermon of Courage need to be able to cope better with Fear Auras, or Fear aura of LH need to be reduced, or price of the spell increase. I would not want to see it nerfed into obvliion by any means, it is cool spell, but as it is now it is a bit too uch, especially for Caelum, who are already great riders and one of the strongest nation.

The main problem with False Horrors is that there is apparently a bug (documented by Arryn I believe), because the priests _never_ cast Sermon of Courage to counteract the fear.

[The_Tauren13]

Cainehill said:
The main problem with False Horrors is that there is apparently a bug (documented by Arryn I believe), because the priests _never_ cast Sermon of Courage to counteract the fear.

Hmm... I suppose fixing that would balance the spell considerably. Much better idea than randomly nerfing it, IMO.