Does this math work?

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
I have always thought that because the primary blood nation (supposed to be Mictlan) is actually WORSE at blood hunting than Abysia, then something must be terribly wrong indeed.

Mictlan isn't worse. They can pay for four blood hunters for the cost of a single Abysian blood hunter.

The fact that you have to sacrifice something like 20-30 slaves per turn just to keep your diminion in MP is a disaster for Mictlan.

This is their strongest suit. You can smash the dominion of other people with your superior blood income.

[Boron]

Graeme this time you are not totally correct i think :

First Abysia can sacrifice blood for dominionpush too but it spreads also by its temples etc. normally . So Abysia spreads dominion if it wants to even stronger than Mictlan .

Mictlan isn't worse. They can pay for four blood hunters for the cost of a single Abysian blood hunter.

One mictlan priest costs 80 gold .
One demonbred 260 gold .
So here the ratio is 1 to 3,25 .
The drawback is though that the demonbred is capitol only .

If you would play Abysia BoH Sanguine Acolyte costs "only" 100 gold too and is not capitol only too . That is 25% more expensive . So it is more expensive but the difference is really not severe . For this they are 100% fire immune and don't need to sacrifice blood for dominionpush .

Not to forget that you get rid of the annoying micromanagement of assigning the slaves for sacrifice .

[Huzurdaddi]

The real power of Mictlain over Abysia is the Tribal King. These guys and the free slaves under them keep the populace under control while you blood hunt like mad.

Mictalin is basically 100% blood. Their troops are there for inital expansion but once that is done you should not use your gold on anything but:

Tribal Kings
Blood hunters
Various capital only preists to spend the blood
Watchtowers/Labs/Temples

Keep that tax rate at 100%, you can do that as Mictlain. The slaves will keep the people in line. Blood hunt in EVERY province.

Seriously, the power of Mictlain is the Tribal King. Use it. Heck, abuse it!

Not to forget that you get rid of the annoying micromanagement of assigning the slaves for sacrifice .

No kidding what a pain.

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
First Abysia can sacrifice blood for dominionpush too but it spreads also by its temples etc. normally . So Abysia spreads dominion if it wants to even stronger than Mictlan.

The effect of a temple is washed out by the effect of blood sacrifice. A mictlan priest with a jade knife, which is something Abysia has trouble forging, is the equivalent of 4 temples. An anathemant salamander costs 200 gold to get the same effect when blood sacrificing.

One mictlan priest costs 80 gold .
One demonbred 260 gold .
So here the ratio is 1 to 3,25.

Yep, and since you can start up your second recruiting centre on turn 4, you can get your blood income up to high levels very quickly.

If you would play Abysia BoH Sanguine Acolyte costs "only" 100 gold too and is not capitol only too.

Sure, but blood of humans can't take a magic scale, takes an 5% gold hit in all their their provinces other than the capital, and can't summon devils without a fire magic booster.

Not to forget that you get rid of the annoying micromanagement of assigning the slaves for sacrifice .

Right click on your blood hunting provinces, ctrl-click on the blood hunters. Press 'Z'. It's more work than clicking pool slaves, but not much.

[Boron]

[quote]
Graeme Dice said:

Boron said:

Right click on your blood hunting provinces, ctrl-click on the blood hunters. Press 'Z'. It's more work than clicking pool slaves, but not much.

Thnx i didn't know that .
I did pool blood slaves and then reassign the slaves to the sacrificers atm .
Your solution should be again a bit more quick


I haven't played BoH yet but i will try them perhaps soon .
The 5% goldhit because of Heat 2 only is annoying but shouldn't be too severe i think . No Magic is annoying too but on the other hand free points and you don't need so much research as Abysia .

Since your bloodhunters need SDRs anyway you could go construction 6 as primary research goal . Then you get your devils most cost effective anyway via soul contracts forged by your warlocks .


But all in all i think you are very right that mictlan is better there .
I wonder why so many ppl play abysia but few mictlan .
Your explanations were all very good .
Abysia seems to have nothing which mictlan doesn't have too .
Which other "advantage" does Abysia have over Mictlan than +80 points from heat 3 and normal dominionspred ?
These advantages are so minimal .

Mictlan in return has :
-very cool magic flexibility , clamhoarding , x-breed , with water bracelet the national mages can summon ice devils , the fire priests can summon arch devils .
-hunt slaves
-as you and Huzurdaddi pointed out with magic 3 those 80 gold sacred blood 1 priests are damn good researchers ( 6 rp ) . This even almost beats sages .

So why do so many ppl play abysia ?

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
So why do so many ppl play abysia ?

Abysia is cool because it's a nation of demons. Abysia has amazing national troops that make early expansion easy. Abysia has 120 extra design points by going to heat 3, death 1.

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

Abysia is cool because it's a nation of demons. Abysia has amazing national troops that make early expansion easy. Abysia has 120 extra design points by going to heat 3, death 1.

Whats so amazing about Abysian national troops ?
They are high protection but resourcewise extremely expensive .
With a Fire 9 Bless i personally consider mictlans troops even superior .
Imo any other bloodnation ( jotunheim , ulm , pangenea , marignon , vanheim ) has better troops than Abysia .
To add pain most of Abysia's troops have only stratmove 1 .
Most of Abysia's heavy inf costs 20 gold / 30 resources .
Marignon DF can build lots of x-bows which are useful later too by flaming arrows .
With jotunheim i don't need to say a single word .
Vanheim is not really cheaper but Vans are really good and skinshifters/huskarls etc. can be useful too .
Mictlan can use a few slaves as fodder and blessed sun warriors or eagle warriors etc. do the job .

If you play abysia do you play them with a cheap castle or an expensive one ? With something like a watchtower you won't get more than 3 HI / turn resourcewise . I personally have really not found a way how to use Abysian troops in large enough numbers that they are good .
They have rather low morale unfortunately so routing is really always for me a problem with them .

Btw : Does flaming arrows work with slingers etc. too ? that they hurl flaming stones ?

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
Whats so amazing about Abysian national troops ?
They are high protection but resourcewise extremely expensive.

Fire immune, superhuman stats, high MR, high morale, heat radiation. They have morningstars which are the best general purpose weapon available. They can also easily afford productivity 3 to make large numbers of troops.

With a Fire 9 Bless i personally consider mictlans troops even superior.

You shouldn't. Fire-9 blessed lava warriors will eat fire-9 blessed Mictlan troops for breakfast. A simple simulation shows that they win 99% of the time.

Imo any other bloodnation ( jotunheim , ulm , pangenea , marignon , vanheim ) has better troops than Abysia.

Jotunheim and Abysia have equal quality troops. The heat radiation and superior numbers mean that they can survive quite well. Ulmish troops are definetly inferior. They have fewer stats, less MR, aren't fire immune, and don't radiate heat. Abysian troops will win even at half the numbers. Marignon troops also suffer from the same problems dealing with Abysian troops. Einheres are also about the same as Abysian troops, and only a very expensive blessing will make Van's and Valkyries equal to Abysian troops when you spend the same amount of gold on them.

To add pain most of Abysia's troops have only stratmove 1.

Which doesn't matter when you are invading someone else.

Most of Abysia's heavy inf costs 20 gold / 30 resources.

And most of Jotunheim's cost 30 gold and 38 resources. Both require productivity to make sufficient numbers.

Marignon DF can build lots of x-bows which are useful later too by flaming arrows.

Sure they can, but those flaming arrows don't do anything to abysian troops.

With jotunheim i don't need to say a single word .

Actually, you definetly do need to explain this, since any experience would show you that giants and Abysian infantry are ramarkably evenly matched.

Vanheim is not really cheaper but Vans are really good and skinshifters/huskarls etc. can be useful too.

For the same cost, without an enormous blessing, abysian troops will defeat Van troops.

Mictlan can use a few slaves as fodder and blessed sun warriors or eagle warriors etc. do the job .

Mictlan's troops cannot stand up to Abysia's. They will end up on fire, and don't have weapons that can penetrate a protection of 18 with any regularity.

If you play abysia do you play them with a cheap castle or an expensive one?

The only two nations that doesn't get a castle by default is Mictlan and R'lyeh. From there I decide whether I want a wizard's tower for nations like Pythium, or a hill fortress for nations like Miasma C'Tis.

With something like a watchtower you won't get more than 3 HI / turn resourcewise. I personally have really not found a way how to use Abysian troops in large enough numbers that they are good.

Well, first off, you don't use a watchtower, you use a castle and productivity 3. You alchemize your fire gems early to keep your troop production high.

They have rather low morale unfortunately so routing is really always for me a problem with them.

They have a morale of 11 and have access to holy 4 priests. There's no morale problem there.

Btw : Does flaming arrows work with slingers etc. too ? that they hurl flaming stones ?

Yes, it works with all missile weapons.

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
Whats so amazing about Abysian national troops ?
They are high protection but resourcewise extremely expensive .
With a Fire 9 Bless i personally consider mictlans troops even superior .
Imo any other bloodnation ( jotunheim , ulm , pangenea , marignon , vanheim ) has better troops than Abysia .

You think that Ulm, Pangaea, and Marignon have better troops than Abysia? According to whom? Tom Clancy??? Unless you're talking vampires (Ulm theme) or carrion critters (Carrion Woods Pan), I'm thinking that you aren't eating enough fish. ( Marignon's KotC are capital only, incredibly expensive, and thus the fact they may be superior 1 for 1 to Abysia's troops doesn't matter. )

If you play abysia do you play them with a cheap castle or an expensive one ? With something like a watchtower you won't get more than 3 HI / turn resourcewise . I personally have really not found a way how to use Abysian troops in large enough numbers that they are good .
They have rather low morale unfortunately so routing is really always for me a problem with them .

Flood and flame, no kidding that with a watchtower you aren't going to get many a turn, especially if you're playing heavy sloth, which I'm guessing you are. If you want a lot of Abysia's decent national troops, you don't take much sloth (if any), and you take a decent castle admin-wise.

Or you take some sloth, take a 30-40 admin castle, and build castles strategically, to maximize production. But the bottom line is, just like many other nations with good but resource heavy troops - you decide before the game starts whether you want to use those good troops, or not.

[PDF]

I don't play Mictlan much but rather Abysia : usually I put 3-4 hunters w/SDR and no patrol, and it works fine, except for some temporary unrest peaks.
I'm reluctant to patrol due to pop loss and the fact that unrest isn't a real problem for bloodhunting before it reaches approx 40 (10% chance it foils the hunt).

Even with my poor Mictlan experience I can't see how it can be more efficient at bloodhunting than Abysia BoH, sacred 100 gold B1 sacred mages recruitable everywhere, sacrifice possible but in addition to normal temple dominion, they get every advantage possible !