Elemental King/Queen summoning limits?

[PDF]

Huzurdaddi said:

I've had this argument before. Astral has decent battle magic. Hardly what I would call awesome.

Astral's real bonus ( in my mind ) is that it grants mobility. The combat spells are nice but not better than many other schools.

I concur to calling "awesome" the Astral battle magic : not even talking of Master Enslave, you get Body Ethereal, Stellar Cascade, Soul Slay, Paralyze, Antimagic ... !

[Huzurdaddi]

I concur to calling "awesome" the Astral battle magic

Hmm awesome would I guess indicate that it is one of the best schools. Let's define awesome as top two.

So let's compare to air. Air has a number of area effect high damage, Armor Negating, no MR check spells that are feared by all. It is widely considered to be the best battle field magic. Orb lighting, false horrors, thunderstike, wrathful skies, storm these are all considered to be "awesome" spells. I don't know if it really is #1 but many people consider it thus.

Now #2 is much harder. It could be earth. They have a number of very powerful battle spells. Blade wind, Petrify, magma eruption there are a few and they are hard ( or impossible ) to resist.

Perhaps #2 is death. Life drain can not be resisted and it is 100 precision. Death has fine battlefield summons. Banefire is considered one of the better direct damage dealing spells. It has a vast array of battlefield spells and many do not have an MR check.

No, IMO ( and I could be wrong here ) Astral magic is at best the #4 battle magic in the game. Exactly in the middle of the pack. If this is what goes for "awesome" then so be it.

[Cohen]

Well, the 3 Cherubyne type uber arch-angels could be really nice to see (since Seraph has been assigned to Caelum and Seraphim too).
Grabriel, Michael and Rapheal ^^
or most fantasy
Uriel, Azrael and Imrael

[Huzurdaddi]

Well, the 3 Cherubyne type uber arch-angels could be really nice to see (since Seraph has been assigned to Caelum and Seraphim too).

Or maybe harbringers that were about as combat sturdy as a bane lord ... they are the same research level you know.

That would be cool. It does not work out that way. They are more expensive and far less combat capable. They do have A2 though. Yay!

A funny story. A SoapyFrog found himself in possession of a S5 mage a lot of research and plenty of astral gems and he could not for the life of him find anything useful for the astral mage to do.

Now I do not know if I would go that far. I think that astral is decent ( note : middle of the pack ) combat magic. And I think that it gives impressive mobility if you want to spend the gems. I do think that it totally lacks summons of any worth and that is, IMO, it's real failing.

[archaeolept]

doom horrors, vampire queens aren't so bad

not to mention golems.

[Huzurdaddi]

doom horrors, vampire queens aren't so bad

Indeed wishing is the only reasonable summon. However 100 astral gems is quite expensive assuming no clams.

not to mention golems.

Golems are clods. But it is all astral has. Not even as useful as a bane, which cost far less and requires less research. Bleech.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Huzurdaddi said:
Golems are clods. But it is all astral has. Not even as useful as a bane, which cost far less and requires less research. Bleech.

Golems with Stymphalian Armour and Winged Shoes/Boots of Quickness make excellent tramplers. Add anti-magic and a charcoal shield for more fun, or give your Golem the full "anti-the-person-who-hits-me" outfit. Bane Lords look funnier when they are flat.

[Yossar]

Huzurdaddi said:

Hmm awesome would I guess indicate that it is one of the best schools. Let's define awesome as top two.

So let's compare to air. Air has a number of area effect high damage, Armor Negating, no MR check spells that are feared by all. It is widely considered to be the best battle field magic. Orb lighting, false horrors, thunderstike, wrathful skies, storm these are all considered to be "awesome" spells. I don't know if it really is #1 but many people consider it thus.

Now #2 is much harder. It could be earth. They have a number of very powerful battle spells. Blade wind, Petrify, magma eruption there are a few and they are hard ( or impossible ) to resist.

Perhaps #2 is death. Life drain can not be resisted and it is 100 precision. Death has fine battlefield summons. Banefire is considered one of the better direct damage dealing spells. It has a vast array of battlefield spells and many do not have an MR check.

No, IMO ( and I could be wrong here ) Astral magic is at best the #4 battle magic in the game. Exactly in the middle of the pack. If this is what goes for "awesome" then so be it.

Astral's not a school for dealing damge on the battlefield. It's a more general school. It's definitely not useful in every battle, but in the right situations, it's very, very good. Antimagic is a huge help against things like Illithids. Doom is great for making large Groups of SCs much more vulnerable to afflictions. Battle Fortune/Will of the Fates are great defensive spells for any unit. Communion is always good and almost necessary for some high level spells. And a group of astrologers with as many spell focuses, starshine skullcaps, boots of quickness, crystal coins, and rune smashers as you can afford can be extremely scary.

Air is good, but a ring of tamed lightning or thunder ward takes away a lot of its punch if you know it's coming. And the best air spell, storm, can be duplicated by an item.

[Arryn]

Death has the best summons in the game IMO. I even prefer the Nature summons to the Air ones. And once IW fixes the anti-morale loss spells so they're effective vs. False Horror, Air should be readily negatable. But until then, Air is #1, with Death #2, Earth a distant #3, and Nature at #4. IMO, FWIW. YMMV.

[Huzurdaddi]

It's definitely not useful in every battle, but in the right situations

Hence middle of the pack. IMO. Although I have stood corrected that if you have the correct cross-paths ( in particular death ) then it becomes much better.

And a group of astrologers with as many spell focuses, starshine skullcaps, boots of quickness, crystal coins, and rune smashers

That's a lot of hardware to put on a 10 hit point body. You may cry if you get hit with a flames from the sky.