Some ideas: raiding, seiging, spell AI and more..

[Huzurdaddi]

Forge astral based items or alchemize them into other types of gems and use those.

Alchemize HOHOHO. Saying that is a better use of gems is retarded. And honestly it only is since you are going to death gems and death has some curiously cost efficient spells.

Sorry that's a *relly* bad answer.

As I have said before and now if commonly being accepted: the utility of hoarding is entirely dependant upon map size.

On Faerun and maps like it hoarding is essential. On Aran it is less of a facor.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
Alchemize HOHOHO. Saying that is a better use of gems is retarded. And honestly it only is since you are going to death gems and death has some curiously cost efficient spells.

The only spells that might be too cost-efficient for death would be Tartarian Gate, and that's assuming that you can keep Gift of Health active, or can keep wishing back the chalice every time someone steals it from you, and that you have a nature gem income that's high enough to cast gift of reason constantly. As for alchemizing, 10 casts of summon Lamias will would be a good use for 100 astral pearls, and would possibly be quite a bit more useful than a single doom horror that also requires 20 more nature gems. Or you could put those pearls into gift of health, or forge of the ancients, or haunted forest. All of which are more likely to have game altering effects than a doom horror.

[Soapyfrog]

Graeme Dice said:
The only spells that might be too cost-efficient for death would be Tartarian Gate, and that's assuming that you can keep Gift of Health active, or can keep wishing back the chalice every time someone steals it from you, and that you have a nature gem income that's high enough to cast gift of reason constantly. As for alchemizing, 10 casts of summon Lamias will would be a good use for 100 astral pearls, and would possibly be quite a bit more useful than a single doom horror that also requires 20 more nature gems. Or you could put those pearls into gift of health, or forge of the ancients, or haunted forest. All of which are more likely to have game altering effects than a doom horror.

Hooray for bloated gem incomes. Seriously you think this an interesting way to play?

In any case re: doom horrors I would love to hear how you would kill them so quickly and effectively. Frankly unless you get super lucky or have a serious mass of casters you are unlikely to be able to kill one, let alone two, or three, or four that you will quite likely encounter in a clam-hoarding game.

Since I have to fight doom horrors, I'd love to know what SPECIFIC counters you would propose to kill them.

[Alneyan]

My main concern on the matter of clams is the impact of their removal (or at least, their nerfing) on the nations for which clams are the saving grace. For example, while Arcoscephale or Pythium are likely good enough without clams, what about T'ien Ch'i? The Celestial Empire isn't exactly regarded as being the most powerful nation around, and reducing their access to clams will probably have a negative consequence on them.

It would be even worse for Spring and Autumn T'ien Ch'i, and possibly other nations/themes (R'lyeh? Atlantis? Pythium Serpent Cult? I am not a scholar on these). Magic sites remain a solution, but T'ien Ch'i is probably not among the nations with the means to lead the expansion race on its own, and its jack-of-all-trade mages are almost begging for these hefty items boosting their magic paths; since such items are quite expensive, clams are more than welcome here. And of course, Astral pearls provide these versatile mages with a more varied source of gems through alchemy; it isn't so good to have access to all the magic paths if you do not have a steady income to actually use all your nice spells.

[Gandalf Parker]

Alneyan said:
My main concern on the matter of clams is the impact of their removal (or at least, their nerfing) on the nations for which clams are the saving grace. For example, while Arcoscephale or Pythium are likely good enough without clams, what about T'ien Ch'i? The Celestial Empire isn't exactly regarded as being the most powerful nation around, and reducing their access to clams will probably have a negative consequence on them.

The devs have specificaly mentioned Atlantis as a nation where clams are a basic part of the strategy. And that any clam-nerfing would have to be considered for what it would do to them. They dont have alot going for them now.

[baruk]

Gandalf Parker said:

The devs have specificaly mentioned Atlantis as a nation where clams are a basic part of the strategy. And that any clam-nerfing would have to be considered for what it would do to them. They dont have alot going for them now.

I would be against a change that reduced access to clams (by increasing their cost) or that made them almost useless(a suggestion I read to no longer allow transfer of gems from commanders to the lab). I'm not wild about horror marking the poor clam holders either.

I hope my suggestion was in the same spirit as Illwinter's recent change, limiting gem generators to one per commander (my suggestion was limiting numbers of each productive generator to dominion strength + magic rating per province, minimum value of 1). Putting an upper limit on the generators (per province) is not too harsh a change, and under my system, a potential hoarder such as Atlantis could tailor nation design toward hoarding, with high magic rating and dominion strength. My idea would probably be more for dominions 3 or a mod, as it would have a devastating effect on current games.

I don't think Atlantis is too weak a nation, anyway, they just seem to be going through a phase of unpopularity. I can remember a dominions 1 discussion about R'lyeh's inferiority to Atlantis, based on their vulnerability to massed war lobster assaults. It amuses me to see the argument come full circle when not a lot has changed since then. Just the void gate, which has made R'lyeh a bit more fun (mental image of squidheads throwing around a beachball, heh).

[Graeme Dice]

Soapyfrog said:
In any case re: doom horrors I would love to hear how you would kill them so quickly and effectively.

If they don't have a lightning ring. Thunder strike and orb lightning. If they don't have a ring of fire, incinerate. If they don't have a ring of cold, frozen heart. Skeletons or lifeless troops will also work. Any semi-tough SC should also function quite well.

[Soapyfrog]

Graeme Dice said:
If they don't have a lightning ring. Thunder strike and orb lightning. If they don't have a ring of fire, incinerate. If they don't have a ring of cold, frozen heart.

For frozen heart or incinerate to work, you would need several mages casting simultaneousl AND hope your opponent is foolish enough not to know what your mages can do and provide the correct elemental resistance.

Thunderstrike and Banefire tend to miss alot, at which point the doom horror(s) eat your lunch.

Orb lightning you better have amazing air mages who are also lucky, since orb lightning is also quite imprecise... and furthermore short ranged. Again nevermind the fact that the DH will PROBABLY have a ring of tamed lightning.

Skeletons or lifeless troops will also work. Any semi-tough SC should also function quite well.

Sure you could throw out some chaff to slow the doom horror down, maybe. Although when I have tried this tactic, the Doom Horrors ignored my massed skeletons and kept eating casters.

As for semi-tough SC... have you looked at a DHs stats/attacks? Good... freaking... luck... maybe say 15-20 bane lords armed with moon blades will do the trick.

Only time I killed a doom horror was when it foolishly stormed a castle, alone, with no AMA, and fell victim to 20 or so sauromancers mass-casting disintegrate with one sauromancer casting earth grip to hold him in place... only two sauromancers died. Of course, next up were TWO doom horrors, and they had no trouble eating everyone alive.

Feh.

[Graeme Dice]

Soapyfrog said:
For frozen heart or incinerate to work, you would need several mages casting simultaneousl AND hope your opponent is foolish enough not to know what your mages can do and provide the correct elemental resistance.

If you are at the stage in the game where your opponent is using doom horrors, then you will certainly have plenty of your national mages along with you in an armies.

Thunderstrike and Banefire tend to miss alot, at which point the doom horror(s) eat your lunch.

Thunderstrike doesn't miss that much, and you only need about three hits to kill it.

Orb lightning you better have amazing air mages who are also lucky, since orb lightning is also quite imprecise... and furthermore short ranged. Again nevermind the fact that the DH will PROBABLY have a ring of tamed lightning.

Which is why you use multiple types of elemental magic. It can't resist all three types at once.

Sure you could throw out some chaff to slow the doom horror down, maybe. Although when I have tried this tactic, the Doom Horrors ignored my massed skeletons and kept eating casters.

Skeletons should be able to kill it actually, since it won't regain any life from them.

As for semi-tough SC... have you looked at a DHs stats/attacks? Good... freaking... luck... maybe say 15-20 bane lords armed with moon blades will do the trick.

A bane lord with quickness will have attack/defense of 17/17. With a moon blade, that's 19/20, which isn't far off from the doom horror. Put a lucky pendant on them both to make it even. With a strangth of 19 and moon blade damage of 11, the bane lord will do 60 damage on a successful hit. Two such hits will be enough to kill the doom horror.

You could also give the bane lord a spirit helmet or a sculuta columnus and some other type of weapon if you want.

Of course, next up were TWO doom horrors, and they had no trouble eating everyone alive.

You'd have been far better off casting drain life.

[alexti]

Graeme Dice said:

You'd have been far better off casting drain life.

Or you could make 1 or 2 cast relief and some others - animate something. Those doom horrors would be doomed