Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

[Boron]

Yeah Peter Ebbesen but what about my argument that the anameth salamander and dragon are more or less useless against most enemies they encounter ?

Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .
And any opponent that attacks you as Abysia will give his SCs and perhaps even his better mages 100% fire resistence items so they are useless here as well .

The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .

[PDF]

I won't enter into price of mages debate, I don't think i's the real issue...
Indeed, what will change in an Aby game if mages would cost 30% less ? Not much, as the Blood mages are capitol-only, you get 1/turn anyway - only difference is that you'll have on average maybe 1.5 Fire gem/turn more - you won't have to sell them due to cheaper prices...
Balance-wise it's very insignificant... Granted that's not true for Salamanders, and overall Aby would be richer, so have some more Salamanders as well as troops. But it still doesn't seem to me that a big deal.
OTOH making the basic Warlock Appr NOT capitol-only is a real deal, because it will allow much more effective BH by Aby - even if the mages are expensive ...

What about WA at 200 Gold but buildable everywhere ?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:
Yeah Peter Ebbesen but what about my argument that the anameth salamander and dragon are more or less useless against most enemies they encounter ?

I would say that that claim was widely exaggerated. Most enemies you are likely to encounter in a game are neither devils nor fire-immune SCs. And, of course, the Holy 4 on the Dragon stays useful for helping your own side for the duration of the game, even if you do end up - in the very late game - fighting only fire-immune critters. You can even have phoenix pyre'd L3, L4, or L5 priests running around if you want to, which does wonders for their survival ratio.

It is of course true that mid-to-late game all SCs you encounter are going to be equipped with fire-protection because they know fire is one of your strenghts that they have to counter. That is quite fine as it takes up slots that would have been used for other items and possibly gives your own non-fire-using SCs a small advantage on the opposition. The same goes for air. If your enemy is airbased, you need air resistance. It is hardly a fire specialty.

Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .

The moral here being? That you should use your devil hordes vs. their devil hordes, that you should try to ally them, or that you should use your superior normal forces to crush Michtlan early (if possible?) I don't think that the moral is "fire magic is totally useless"

The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .

Yes, the Pythium theurg is way more flexible. He is a member of the strongest mage-priesthood in the world. Pythium lives - and dies - by its mages. Compared to Abysia, its ordinary troops suck big time. What is your point? That the Abysians should get cheap mages because Pythium does? The whole point of Pythium is cheap and versatile theurgs plus expensive arch-theurgs boosted by communion. The point of Abysia is the combination of strong troops, priests, decent magic, and good blood.

[Boron]

Peter Ebbesen said:

Yes, the Pythium theurg is way more flexible. He is a member of the strongest mage-priesthood in the world. Pythium lives - and dies - by its mages. Compared to Abysia, its ordinary troops suck big time. What is your point? That the Abysians should get cheap mages because Pythium does? The whole point of Pythium is cheap and versatile theurgs plus expensive arch-theurgs boosted by communion. The point of Abysia is the combination of strong troops, priests, decent magic, and good blood.

My whole point is that i think Cohen's price reduction makes sense .
You have to admit that a theurg is still way more useful than a anathmet salamander which costs now the same in Cohen's mod .
As PDF said these small changes aren't insane they just help Abysia a bit . If Abysia really needs this is another question but at least it doesn't hurt the game balance neither .

And probably Cohen will improve slightly a few other mages as well and then the comparision is meaningless anyway .

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:
My whole point is that i think Cohen's price reduction makes sense .

That is not a point - that is an opinion. A point would be something you could use as an argument to sway the opposition; that you think something makes sense wholeheartedly is not an argument for others to do so and hence no point.

You have to admit that a theurg is still way more useful than a anathmet salamander which costs now the same in Cohen's mod .

I do not have to admit it (as that implies that I have suggested otherwise, which I have not) - but I will certainly agree with that... [Except when the opposition is evil enough to cast that nasty high-level fire spell that gives everybody without fire resistance fatigue or when the opposition hits a group of exposed mages with fires from afar].

So what? That has very little to do with setting the right price.

As an example, Caelum has strong mages that cost way less than everybody elses. Does that mean that everybody else should get cheaper mages? (which would still leave Caelum with better mages compared to the price vs. most nations). No, it does not. Caelum is a magocracy and the mages are its main strength. (Its secondary being flight)

Likewise, the Abysians. They are not wannabe-Theurgs - they are Abysians, part of the proud Abysian people and army. As a nation they have their own strength and weaknesses, and one of their main weaknesses is that they are not inexpensive to hoard in large numbers, especially in the early game. Would you be willing to give up one of their strengths in return for being cheaper?

Come to think of it, this has already been done in the Blood of the Humans theme.

[Cohen]

I disagree with the vision "magocracy" so cheaper mages.
Same for Pythium ... a "magic-theocracy" doesn't means Pythium should have the best prices mage-priests.
Magocracy = Mages everywhere.
This is fine.
Caelumnian mages have been raised in cost (both).
Pythium Theur have been raised.

Ulm is a Military Nation ... sadly troops after turn XX (depending on settings) become useless for damage purposal.
Meanwhile Caelum mages are damn good always.

For pricing I consider their overrall effectiveness. Priestly power doesn't give Research Points. And has a limited range of spells, and no forging at all. Priestly Level will become soon useless, with troops.
Abysyan Anthemats aren't so good. It seems that everyone forgets about their Precision ... making them not so good combat mages, even if your troops are immune probably you'll miss enemy troops.
A Caelumnian Seraph is now 140 gold. Why? It's non capitol only. A2W1 is a good magic combo, quickness + lightning/frozen heart or false horror spam. + Cloud Trapeze. Neatly superior to ie a Warlock Apprentice. Fire Resistance is compared to Cold Resistance. Better hp compared to superior precision, and the Caelumnian guy flies.

I've changed too the Marignon Gran Master (to 250 gold).
The Serpent King (the guy with 4 priestly level) bringing him down of price to 180 too.
Now I don't recall exactly, but I'll make a readme before I release something more there.
However this post (and my mod too) lacks of a full listing of all modifies.
And my Mod still lacks of testing.

[Peter Ebbesen]

At low levels, fireballs and flares tend to hit something despite their precision if they are in a target rich environment and you will not take friendly casualties since everybody has fire resistance - but you will probably have the Anathenant Salamanders and Dragons along for their priest levels rather than their fire magic - which is as it should be: They are priests first and mages second. You do not have your priests around to form firing squads but to keep your troops in shape while they chew up the opposition.

At high levels, incinerate is precision 100 and accuracy is not an issue - and your priests are armed and dangerous. Still great for shepherding an army of high-bless Lava Warriors if you like that sort of thing, but able to take potshots at anybody who raises his head at the wrong time.

The Abysian mages, the Warlock Apprentice and Warlock, have astral 100 precision attacks in combat.

Arguing that since after a certain late-game turn ordinary troops are no longer useful priest levels are less important and should thus be seriously discounted would seem to indicate that the mod is directed specifically towards long games rather than both short, medium, and long games, as high level priests are very, very, valuable in both short and medium games. (I also find them useful in long games to quickly flip dominion of a newly occupied province but you might not)

If your intention with the mod is to make a mod for long-term games solely, then my apologies for not understanding it earlier: It would explain a number of your design decisions and I suggest you amend your first post to make this clear, if that is indeed your desire.

[Zen]

It's like watching Peter really lay into a punching bag that just sways back and forth until frustration or exhaustion take it's toll. Perhaps he will start using headbutts for emphasis.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Boron said:
Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .

That might be true in 1-on-1 Abysia vs Mictlan games, but I don't believe they're so common. For the remaining ~99%, the synergy in Devils + Fire magic is just plain obvious.

[Boron]

Nagot Gick Fel said:

That might be true in 1-on-1 Abysia vs Mictlan games, but I don't believe they're so common. For the remaining ~99%, the synergy in Devils + Fire magic is just plain obvious.

Yeah but Abysia has a hard time anyway against Airnations cause they can use staff of storms , then less precision for firespells + the devils don't fly anymore as well as your other SCs .
Overall fire is slightly less useful than air imo .
And 2 of the good airnations , pythium + caelum have Water for quickness .
Iron dragons and mechanical Men are Fireimmune too + lightning immune so you can use them together with wrathful skies to add to the pain of poor Abysia