MP Game - Live and Learn (newbie game)-running

[Schmoe]

Tuidjy said:
During Worldcon (beginning of September) I was watching Yvelina play that game.
Lately we have been talking about it, and she has been trying to figure out
how anyone would have such a surplus of gems as to use tons of them for
defeating her enchantments.

Now, if I were in her position, I would go look for these clams. But then
again, what do I know...

I think the answer would be - the same way she has tons of gems to cast the enchantments in the first place. Vanheim has cast Forge of the Ancients (twice), Gift of Health, Well of Misery, and Arcane Nexus in this game. That's a lot of gems, and dispelling takes fewer gems than casting the enchantment.

By the way, apparently Fire Storm > C'tis. I think my upkeep went down by about 200 gold this turn

[Yvelina]

Hey, hey, a couple of points!

o Petar is not playing this game, I am. I am not positive that Pythium is the one taking down my enchantments.

o I thought that you cannot dispell an enchantment unless you put in as many gems as were invested in the first place. If this is not the case, then I am a fool for using at least the double of gems for each of mine (but that unfortunate first FoA). Or maybe tripple, you know? ;-)

o I have realized I positively HATE not knowing who my enemies are. Right now, I should probably be declaring war on Abysia, but have not, because if my secret enemy is Pythium, he will probably ally with Abysia and I will be in trouble, and if C'tis is the one who was taking down my enchantments, he does not deserve my help.

o And finally, I did not cast Fire Storm at C'tis. I have no fire mages or fire on my pretender, I am alchemizing all of my fire gem income, and unless I am mistaken, Fire storm is a level 9 spell, and I do not have level 9 Evocation researched.

o Oh, and did I mention, I hate this game. I wanna play team games, where you know which way your front and rear are.

o As for the tons of gems, I am using them for some benefit to me (or trying to) Whoever is taking down my enchantments is wasting them.

o I hate diplomacy. I think I will write Pythiumx2, Abysiax2, C'tis and AI on a dice, and see which way it rolls.

[bleach168]

I think Schmoe is refering to the level 7 evocation spell, Fire Storm. Oh, and he most assuredly knows where it came from. =)

But Yvelina, you should be happy about the position you're in. The rest of us are just crippling ourselves while you hoard and what not. We spend all our gems fighting and the thought of casting a global hasn't even crossed my mind.

I am having lots of fun though. =)

[Schmoe]

Yvelina said:
o I thought that you cannot dispell an enchantment unless you put in as many gems as were invested in the first place. If this is not the case, then I am a fool for using at least the double of gems for each of mine (but that unfortunate first FoA). Or maybe tripple, you know? ;-)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the cost to dispel is related to the extra gems put into an enchantment, but not directly equal. In order to Dispel, you have to spend the cost of the Dispel (30), plus an amount equal to the amount originally spent above the base cost of the enchantment you are dispelling. For example, let's say opponent X casts Well of Misery, spending a total of 100 death gems (80 base + 20 extra). The cost to dispel would then be 50 astral gems (30 base +20 extra). Most globals have a base cost higher than 30 gems, so you can effectively dispel for fewer gems than the amount spent on the global.

o I have realized I positively HATE not knowing who my enemies are. Right now, I should probably be declaring war on Abysia, but have not, because if my secret enemy is Pythium, he will probably ally with Abysia and I will be in trouble, and if C'tis is the one who was taking down my enchantments, he does not deserve my help.

o And finally, I did not cast Fire Storm at C'tis. I have no fire mages or fire on my pretender, I am alchemizing all of my fire gem income, and unless I am mistaken, Fire storm is a level 9 spell, and I do not have level 9 Evocation researched.

As bleach said, I know who cast the Fire Storm. Oh yes, I know the culprit, and his red, scaly butt will be mine, I tell you, mine!

o Oh, and did I mention, I hate this game. I wanna play team games, where you know which way your front and rear are.

Sorry you're not having fun. To be honest, the tension in the "cold war" was getting to me, too, so I decided to stir things up a bit. It looks like I may have been better off waiting a few turns, but it's more exciting this way. I may lose, but I'm determined to enjoy doing it

o As for the tons of gems, I am using them for some benefit to me (or trying to) Whoever is taking down my enchantments is wasting them.

Well, I actually disagree. Dispelling your enchantments hurts you. What does an opponent want to do to his enemy? Hurt him/her. I personally don't expect any global to Last long. I just hope I get some use out of mine before they're all gone.

o I hate diplomacy. I think I will write Pythiumx2, Abysiax2, C'tis and AI on a dice, and see which way it rolls.

Hey, what about Arco, Machaka, and Pythium! They're still in this too.

Anyway, I'd be interested in a team game, too, once this one is over. Could be fun.

[Thufir]

Schmoe said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the cost to dispel is related to the extra gems put into an enchantment, but not directly equal. In order to Dispel, you have to spend the cost of the Dispel (30), plus an amount equal to the amount originally spent above the base cost of the enchantment you are dispelling. For example, let's say opponent X casts Well of Misery, spending a total of 100 death gems (80 base + 20 extra). The cost to dispel would then be 50 astral gems (30 base +20 extra). Most globals have a base cost higher than 30 gems, so you can effectively dispel for fewer gems than the amount spent on the global.

Here's a clip from a thread somewhere that I saved:


AFAIK if both the global spell and the Dispel pay the base cost, there is about a 50% dispel chance. This is however modified, depending upon (for both spells) :
- extra gems spent,
- difference in skill of the caster and the level of the spell.
There is also an open-ended d6 added to the gem input of every global and dispelling attempt.
Exemple : a lvl 10 nature mage casts Gift of Health (lvl 5) with 25 extra gems. Sum=25+5+D6(oe). Dispelling astrologer has astral lvl 3 only but uses 35 extra gems. Sum=35+D6(oe). Dispel will probably succeed (35+d6 vs 30+d6) : it's hard to beat a difference of 5 with one (even open-ended) d6.

[Thufir]

We're waiting on Arco, and I know he staled Last turn. J Henry, are you still with us?

[Thufir]

J Henry has had two consecutive stales on us now, unless he shows up in the next 12 hrs, or unless someone objects, I'm going to change him to AI sometime tomorrow.

[Schmoe]

I say we give him another 24 hours. Since it's on 48h quickhost, and usually somebody takes more than 24 hours, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I know, it's a longshot, but it would be better than setting him to AI.

You know Thufir, the more experience I'm getting with this game the worse I feel about going AI in the Last game we played. I know that me doing so really screwed you over. I realize now I should have at the very least tried to find a sub, so consider this an apology.

[Thufir]

My apologies for the delayed response - I've been meaning to reply to this for a while.

Yvelina said:
o Oh, and did I mention, I hate this game. I wanna play team games, where you know which way your front and rear are.

...

o I hate diplomacy. I think I will write Pythiumx2, Abysiax2, C'tis and AI on a dice, and see which way it rolls.

I can certainly sympathize w/ the desire to play team games. I've talked a bit with Boron about the team game that he's in, and it does sound like fun. The downside of a team game is that unless your team has the time and the will to communicate and coordinate effectively, then there's not much of a point in being a "team". From what Boron has told me, they have had some communication problems in their game.

You may have read this, but a while back Bleach started an excellent thread ( here) on what this community thinks is reasonable while conducting diplomacy in MP games. I come from a background of playing the boardgame "Diplomacy" where cutthroat play and back stabbing are essential to the game being interesting (and it can get *very* interesting indeed, if you're interested in complex strategy). Partly based on Bleach's thread, I've decided to moderate my behavior while playing Dom2, as I think the majority of the Dom2 community has a different mind set than most Diplomacy players have.

That said, even in Dom2 I find it helpful to cultivate a bit of deliberate split personality disorder (as one would with any RP type of game - particularly those RP games that permit/encourage inter-player conflict). As such, the one that thing that I can promise you, Yvelina, is that if you were to attack the nation of Pythium magically, or otherwise, based on a possibly mistaken belief that Pythium cast those dispels, then I would react with fury in-game (well such fury as the weakened Pythium is capable of ), but would *not* carry it over to any new games.

YMMV, but for me the 2 keys to making FFA, diplomacy type games fun are to deliberately split in-game and out-of-game mindsets, and making sure not to carry over grudges between games. Oh, and perhaps not taking the game *too* seriously - if I've made my guess wrong and attacked the wrong player - who cares? It's just a game!

On a separate note, I've hosted four games, and this game has had the most fun/interesting group to play with! It's been quite interesting to watch the ebb and flow of who's in the lead, and I'm looking forward to seeing the ultimate outcome!

[Yvelina]

I am SO gonna hurt someone... Two more turns, and someone will pay for all the dispells, and all the spells that my domes intercepted, and the fire spell that got through.

If he happens to be the actual culprit, great! If not, well, I'll get to him, eventually!

Arco, you are out of the game, for which I am sorry... But was it you?