MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)

[Stormbinder]

quantum_mechani said:
This is spinning way out of control. Caine said earlier that I had no reason to be upset with Storm before joining the game, and that's true. Infact, I still am not interested in a conflict over this.

*shrug* I am not interested in the conflict myself. The purpose of my original message was to express my feelings over direction of the game have taken at the end, and why I am bowing out of it. In fact, in my original message I said that your and Miclan nations played well and become 2 out of 3 the major nations in this game at the end.

What you say about my comments about the end game are true, but nothing was ever set in stone about what exactly would happen when Storm was gone.

Sorry quantum, but if you admit that what I said about your comments are true (and it is true), than that's exactly what they meant. "Joint victory" agreement that Mictlan had offered to you, which, as you both said, was largly motivated by your strong mutual dislike for the endgames, leaved only one road open. The road our game took during these Last 5 turns.

Strangely enough, our brief 3 turn war was actually one of the more interesting parts of the game to me (because of my general dislike of the late game, this was only my second expirience I have had fighting a war in it, so I got to use/see tactics that I had not previously).

Well, I am glad you seem to change your opinion about endgames. Personally I think endgames are a lot of fun, especialy in a game such as our, which had several very strong nations at the end, and few minor one. All with very large resourses, very different armies and very different battle tactics. Honestly I was looking forward toward very interesting endgame.

All I can say is that I wish you would come to this conclusion about endgames earlier and would refuse the "shortcut" that Mictlan had offered to you.

What I can't understand is how Storm's quitting was tied to whether there would be any kind of alliance victory. The issues seem totally separate, after all, Storm's empire would be gone before it ever became an issue.

It is quite an opposite. These issues are very tightly connected, since the only reason why my empire would be gone was your "joint victory" agreement.

Heh, funny thing is that archae even had guts to ask me "why I would not try to break your alliance diplomatically?" What a joke. How could one possibly break an alliance where both partners decided that they will share the victory in the game after they crash all opposition? And why would somebody want to waste 20-30 more turns with 20-40 battles per turn, as I had during Last 3 or 4 turns, disregarding the fact that the game he would be playing will no longer be FFA but "team game" instead, simply because 2 players decided that it will be so mostly because they both didn't like endgames at the time when they forged their agreement?

Frankly it does not make any sense to me.


Anyway, if you or Arcahe will find subs for all missing players (it looks like you need to find subs for my Vanheim, R'lyeh, and probably Marignon), I'll gladly send to somebody my two passwords for this game. But I can't honestly ask somebody to sub for Vanheim because I would not imagine somebody would want to play Vanheim, or any other in-game nations except your two, in the "team game" where 1 pre-set team has much more resourses than the rest of the nations combined. And also because the game I would be recruiting for will be no longer FFA game that it was supposed to be.


But who knows, maybe somebody will be interested, perhaps for pure educational or for masohistic purposes. I'll reset new 6000 hours timer one more time if you want me to.

[WraithLord]

I think it's prefectly reasonable for two nations to ally against another for whatever reason.
I don't have a problem with Pan & Mictlan alliance.
My problem is that by deciding on an allied victory in our FFA game they turned the tables for other players.
If Pan & Mictlan want to wipe Van, R'lyeh and Marignon and then settle it out between then I consider it perfectly acceptable.
So long as there's one winner to the game not two.
It's a subtle but important difference.

Anyway, this conflict is blown way out of proportions.
After reading the opinions of the involved players and better
understanding the situation and especially that there isn't going to be an allied victory I am all for continuing the game.

Yes, my position isn't strong and I will most probably not win the game.
So what?! as long as the game is fair I will continue to enjoy it till I'm blown off the face of the map .

So if you guys are willing to settle your differences, by all means let's continue the game!

[Maltrease]

As usual in these situations the truth lies somewhere in-between the strong sided positions people take.

It always disappoints me to see so much negative energy being created and directed to our forum. Negative energy is best used to fuel armies of the undead, feeding the coming Armagedon, or at the very least used to heatup that frozen pizza.

As for the game, the Marigon council had spent over 63 turns (before I took over the empire) preparing for the destruction of Mictan. My stewardship would not be complete if I didn't claim victory over Mictan, or at least prove to the council the error of their ways. Our mages have FAITH that they are invincible to armies made from purple blood.

So the mighty and invincible nation of Marigon is prepared to continue the game if the fates lead us in that direction. If the game does die, only 7 of our 30 priest will weap terribly more than the other 23 feel is appropriate.

BTW - I claim victory over Mictan.

[Stormbinder]

Maltrease said:



BTW - I claim victory over Mictan.

High Council of Vanheim witnesses and supports this claim. Mictlan is clearly on the verge of total defeat by Marignon. Now you have 2 votes out of 5. Find one more and you'll win!

[quantum_mechani]

I'm glad Ry'leh and Mrignon finally spoke their voice in this,
I am happy to continue the game until their nations are ground to dust.

Storm, you don't seem to be getting it, but I will try one more time. We would have allied against you even if we had never thought of turning it into allied victory. Your diplomacy had annoyed us both a lot, and the graphs showed you had become quite powerful. So the issues really are totally separate, you would be facing the same thing if everyone agreed to no allied victory. Unless, of course, you don't believe me that this was our main motivation, which I suppose you are free to do. I never said I now liked the end game, but then again I never hated it either, only preffered the early-middle game.

As far as what to do, how about we continue the war, myself and mictlan vs. Van, Ry'leh and Marignon? If there comes at time when the surviving players are becoming bored, we will deal with it then. Unless Storm disbelieves me about the motivations for the war, this seems to solve everyone's issues.

[Stormbinder]

quantum_mechani said:
I'm glad Ry'leh and Mrignon finally spoke their voice in this,
I am happy to continue the game until their nations are ground to dust.

Storm, you don't seem to be getting it, but I will try one more time. We would have allied against you even if we had never thought of turning it into allied victory. Your diplomacy had annoyed us both a lot, and the graphs showed you had become quite powerful. So the issues really are totally separate, you would be facing the same thing if everyone agreed to no allied victory. Unless, of course, you don't believe me that this was our main motivation, which I suppose you are free to do. I never said I now liked the end game, but then again I never hated it either, only preffered the early-middle game.

As far as what to do, how about we continue the war, myself and mictlan vs. Van, Ry'leh and Marignon? If there comes at time when the surviving players are becoming bored, we will deal with it then. Unless Storm disbelieves me about the motivations for the war, this seems to solve everyone's issues.

Qunatum, I think you are the one who is not geting it.

You said yourself that your main motivation for going into war was to avoid long endgames that you hate. You already confirmed that my quotes of your saying just that were correct. Are you going to try to backpedal and deny it now? Same for Archeolept. Also I don't think you have read my previous letter carefully. As I said, my own actions over Last 5 turns would be very different if not for your "joint" victory. I would not attack Mictlan for example after you attacked me. Instead I would quickly wipe your armies with all my SCs in the north, while spending all my money and gems on summoning troops and building castles in the south, to slow Micltan down when he will finally choose to interfere. You have absolutely nothing to stop the full might of my SCs, artifacts and armies. Unlike Mictlan, you also have almost no stealth troops to avoid my ghost riders/teleporting AQs/pretender/Vans. If the war with Mictlan would start even 3 turns later than it did, by that time all of your best troops and SCs would be gone. Than I would have to face mostly Mictlan, at least for the close future.

And if you think I am braging, think about what I did to your on your northern front over the Last 5 turns. And FYI all this time I have been using only 20-25% of my resourses against you. The rest of my forces were tied on the Mictlan front. By yourself you were never a dangerious enemy for Vanheim. Only Mictlan was.


I am not saying this to insult you, just trying to make you understand that things would go very differently if not for your "joint victory" agreement with Mictlan. So saying "ok, let's pretend nothing happened during Last 5 turns and continue as it is but under different name" does not make any sense to me.

Anyway, if you want to continue this game, I am sending my passwords to Maltrease. He will be the new keeper of the gamem if he wants to. Also if he wants, he can also take control over my Vanheim. I have reset the game for the Last time.


P.S. BTW if Quantum is serious about withdrewing from their "joint victory" agreement and honestly agrees to return to FFA game format, than the only logical choice for him would be to attack Mictlan immideatly, in alliance with all other nations. As of this turn , there is no chance in hell for any combination of in-game nations to beat Mictlan/Pangeya alliance, no matter what label they will put on top of it or how they spin it. At the same time Mictlan is much stronger than Pangeya. I would say that if all nations would combine their might against Mictlan and will cooperate very efficiently, they might have a chance agaisnt him, although Mictlan would still have an advantage. So QM, if you are indeed honestly want to try to win the game instead of this "joint victory" crap that you said is no longer valid, your only possible course of action is to withdrew from your allaince, ally with everybody else, and try to stop Mictlan before he gobble too much territory. Frankly you would still most likely fail since Mictlan is too strong by now, but this is the only real possibility to prevent Mictlan from wining the game, if you are indeed honest about your rediscovered commitment to FFA.

[Maltrease]

The councile of Marigon has come across a new powerful artififact and the necassary runes to make use of it.

With this power it has been able to take direct control of all nations. You will notice that all wealth and magic gems have been reappropriated to "aid" in our cause.

All independent (other nations) units have been disbanded, and the world has finally taken its first steps towards a Lasting piece.

The world IS a safer place now that Marigon has taken control. Soon we issue a new order explaining all the rights and freedoms you no longer have. Fear not though, you will be able to find all the peace and happiness that you need by worshipping our God.

I understand that some of you may not like this outcome, so the councile has decided to allow anyone to appeal this decision. Simply send a four page essay detailing your objections to Maltrease and he will exclude your from the hostile mind control take over.

The dead line for receiving this essay is 10pm EST on Oct 7, 2004.

[Stormbinder]

izaqyos said:
My problem is that by deciding on an allied victory in our FFA game they turned the tables for other players.

I agree, that's exactly my problem as well. And the curent situation on the ground is the direct result of their "joint victory agreement". As the nation on the recieving end of it, I can qurantee that there is no way Mictlan would gain the territory that he gained since the begining of hostilites if not for their "joint victory agreement". Even more, if not for thier joint voctory agreement my own actions would be very different. For example - I would never attack Mictlan myself 4 turns ago, even after he withdrew from NAT. The only reason why I did it was thier "joint victory" plan that Pan have informed me about and Archae promptly confirmed, when they both withdrew from NAT treaties. At that point I knew I had nothing to lose since Mictlan would attack me anyway, as soon as he will finish positioning his sneaky troops over my territory, as he did with Machaka. So I decided that I might as well do something about it while I still can, instead of siting on my arse and waiting for the axe to fall.

I don't think that the map editing that somebody have suggested earlier is a good option either. First of all - it is a huge pain in the butt. Second - what about units/artifacts/armies, etc.? Third - I don't know about you, but I don't keep any old turns around on my comp. There will be no end of arguments about what was what and who was where if we try to "rewind" the game to the time when this "joint voctory" crap was introduced. At least I can honesty say that this proposol do not seem to be very viable to me, all things considering.