Global spell tactics ?

[Daynarr]

Nagot Gick Fel said:

Cradle looks like a rather large map to me.

I didn't say its small, just smaller then Faerun.
LOL, I placed it as an example of a large map, so there is no need to tell me its large.

Significant loss, yes, but over time. In a single turn the loss amounts to a small fraction of your income - and that's not even including gem income, bar the odd clam. Ditto with old age and afflictions: they will affect only a small percentage of your troops each turn, and most of these afflictions won't have a significant impact on leaders. A limp, one-eyed, battle-fraught sage can still research just as well as an healthy one.

Well, no global spell has much effect in one turn. Over time effect is what they are all about. And this one produces unrest which either forces you to drop taxes or live with high unrest which also produces less gold income. Now, maybe to you at least 10% less income in each province looks like marginal thing if you have no upkeep, but if you want to pay for what you have and buy a mage or two that you lost due to the old age - you will feel it. Best way to see how BoT affects income is to cast it an watch the income graph - all nations will get noticable less amount of gold. A few turns is acceptable, but it mounts up in time. Of course, the real effect on someone depends on what nation he plays and his style of play. Some nations are far more vulnerable to BoT then others (not counting undead nations). E.g. Panganea can live with it far better then Ulm.

BoT doesn't only give afflictions; it kills your weaker troops and commanders instantly. Mages usually suffer from it mostly (low HP) so losing even a 1 or 2 of them per turn is a lot. If you don't consider that to be nothing more then nuisance then you have such large empire and income that you have already won the game (or playing faerun).

Note that I'm talking about BoT's effects in general, not strictly from MP or SP aspect, so that's probably why our opinions differ.

There is a reason why people don't cast it often in MP, and there is an even better reason why it tends to be dispelled in a few turn once it's up. Simply put, people don't like seeing their mages get afflictions and get killed, risk their pretender get a nasty affliction (getting rid of them is never easy if you are not Arco) and see their income drop by at least 10% per turn. And when someone does cast it, people usually pay him a visit with a couple of their armies to see WTH was he thinking.

So BOT is a nuisance, sure, but since it brings no direct benefit to its caster, since it affects other nations as well (I'll always have more enemies than allies), and since its effect on my econ and manpower is only marginal, it comes in the Last tier of my own 'to dispel' list. There are several other GEs I'd want to dispel first.

Well, it's usually on my no. 1 to dispel list (unless something nastier is up, like Utterdark). I try to take out offensive global that can kill my troops on the other side of the world before I try to reduce someone's gem income.
Of course, it does depend on what nation – theme I play.

The caster is usually undead nation (Carrion Woods, Desert Tombs, Ermor), which can even benefit from it by getting more corpses in provinces.

Clams maybe, although I'd bet a clamhoarder will still churn them out faster than he loses them. Fetishes carriers on the other hand, are usually undead leaders who don't really care about BOT.

Depends on whom you use as carrier. You can use undead to carry clams and scouts for fetishes. Depends what you have access to. Undead are always better as carriers of course (no upkeep could be one of the reasons ) but you use what you can. Chances are that most of the guys in MP won't have enough death gem income to use undead as carriers so they will resort to scouts and other cheap means. BTW my favourite carriers are spectres.

[Tuidjy]

I cannot see the point of discussing whether Burden of Time is a minor
nuisance, or a devastating cataclism. It is blatant aggression, and anyone
casting it will have my main army on top of his capital the next turn...
even if I do not get the chance to make sure that I will be the only
teleporting there.

I dispell or override Arcane Vortex, Forge of the Ancients and Well of Misery
as a matter of principle. I will tolerate most other globals until I attack
the owner. But in the case of Wrath of God, Burden of Time, Underdark, etc...
'until I attack the owner' means 'this turn'.

As for the losses Burden of Time inflicts... Even with Gift of Health, I was
losing three-four mages per turn to outright death from old age in an Inland
game I was nowhere near winning. I was a newbie at the time, but I still
invaded the offender (Pangaea) and got away with it, because everyone else did
as well.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Daynarr said:
Well, no global spell has much effect in one turn.

The Eyes of God? Thetis Blessing? Sea of Ice? Utterdark? Perpetual Storm? In one word, all the 'strategical' GEs?

And then there are globals you can choose to cast "just for a turn", when you haven't the gems to buff them, if you can get a bargain from that single turn - Forge of the Ancients being the most obvious example.

Now, maybe to you at least 10% less income in each province looks like marginal thing if you have no upkeep

Maybe 'marginal' isn't the most appropriate word here - I say 'marginal' because it's a small fraction, be it 10% of 1000 or 10% of 100000 - it's always 10%.

If you don't consider that to be nothing more then nuisance then you have such large empire and income that you have already won the game (or playing faerun).

Size has nothing to do with it. And I've never played Faerun - way too big for me.

The caster is usually undead nation (Carrion Woods, Desert Tombs, Ermor), which can even benefit from it by getting more corpses in provinces.

I forgot about that - but there are cheaper ways to get fresh (and better) corpses.

Anyway, since it's so little used in MP (except occasionally by near-extinct nations who just cast it to annoy their more succesful enemies! ), I think we're giving BOT an undeserved honor with this lengthy discussion.

[Daynarr]

Lol, ok. Lets give BoT proper burial.

Just a question - who is Albert von Ulm in your signiture? A name you give to your (Ulm) pretender?

[Tuna]

Albert Einstein was born in Ulm, a German city.

One of the quotes he's famous of is "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that he does not throw dice,", or shortened, "God does not play dice."

I love what något has done to it

[alexti]

At what phase of the turn the globals come into effect and when do they disappear?

For example, casting sequence is:
Mage A casts Astral Corruption
Mage B casts something.

Does Mage B risk to be attacked?

Another sequence:
Mage A dispels (successfully) Astral Corruption
Mage B casts something.

Does Mage B risk to be attacked?

[Daynarr]

That’s a good question. I would like to know the answer too.

[archaeolept]

well, you get the effects of a global, for instance gems, on the same turn they are cast, so that would argue for "after" spells.

[Peter Ebbesen]

IIRC, it has been stated earlier by the developers that rituals take place in a completely random order. (I.e. all rituals are queued, the order is randomized, and they are carried out one by one). As such, if mage A casts Astral Corruption and mage B casts another spell, it is random who goes first and mage B may, indeed, find himself at risk. Depending on algorithm (), mage B should have about 50% chance of mage A acting before himself. Same goes for for Astral Corruption is up, mage A dispels it, mage B casts another spell - again, either A or B may go first at random.