Unit cost advice - Mod related

[Wauthan]

Being the kind of person that I am, I keep tinkering with new mod projects. Since the Last patch things are looking brighter and I might actually come up with a useful idea.

I still have trouble calculating gold and resource cost for new units. Sure I can just tweak the stats to fit my own playstyle but experience have shown me that this might not be a good idea at all. I've tried to come up with a basic formula for the different equipment and combat prowess. Frustration did however get the upper hand since logic will always be a lot less helpful than common sense.

So how do you fellers decide how much a unit oughto cost in gold and resources? Not in the big chunky way but in the fine details. Does a Lance always cost 20 resources, a broadsword 3 and a leathal Baneblade a mere 1? Does 16 morale warrant a 20 gp goldcost on a feeble militia? How much more if it's sacred? A heavy infantery cost 10 gp and 20 resources for a 15 prot medium unit. How much more would it cost in Full Plate Mail? Does a 15 prot Troll without equipment gost 20 resources as well or just 1 and extra gold?

What does goldcost and resourcegost actually reflect? My own guess have been that gold reflects the "worthiness" of a unit. A Troll is a lot more expensive than a heavy infantery because its a big badass monster, and well aware of it, and need a lot of gold just to keep under control. How much then are the values on the different abilites in your opinion?

Resourcegost seems to reflect "construction time". A leather cuirass is apparently churned out pretty fast while a plate cuirass takes a while. A shortsword apparently takes just as long to create as a broadsword. A battleready Sea Troll seems to be really easy to find, though expensive to hire, while recruting an ordinary Troll takes twenty times longer. I understand that the function of resources is to place an upper limit to the recruitable number of units (given high amount of gold). But how to you value resources in the fine detail so that one unit cost 3 more than the other though they both have the same equipment?

[Agrajag]

I just have to play the role of annoying guy here, but the answer is: depends.
The gold and resource cost depends on what kind of nation you are playing, a nation with "advanced" technology would forge broadswords faster than a more "primitive" one, a broadsword wielder will cost more in a nation where there aren't many of him etc.

I'll try to think up a satisfactory formula though if that will make you happy =P.

How about this:
Multiply all of the positive traits and divide by the negative ones, then divide by 1,000,000 and voila! there's your gold cost!
Resource should depends on weapons, but I can't think of an idea right now...
Here is an "official" formula:
(Strength)*(Attack Skill)*(Defence Skill)*(Precision)*(Morale)*(HP)*(MR)*(Protection)/(Encumberance)=Gold Cost.
(If Precision is irrelevant, just treat it as 10 I guess).
With this formula a soldier with:
Strength 10
Attack 10
Defence 10
Precision 10
Morale 10
HP 10
MR 10
Protection 10
Encumberance 10
would gost 10GP.
You could also fiddle with the 1,000,000 bit to reflect how hard the soldier is to obtain.

Obviously, this is not the formula I use because I'm not actively modding, but it is a nice one...

[Kristoffer O]

Unit stats gives an approximate gold cost.
Unit equipment gives resource cost.

The res costs of different weapons and armors were scribbled onto an old paper laying around in JK's apartment. Since the development of Dom3 this stat has been removed from the units to each armor and weapon. Thus I can now give you the costs of an armor without having to go through papers on JK's desk (fortunately his desk was often tidy and clean).

There might have been slight changes to the costs since dom2, but not too much.

Shields (buckler, round, kite, tower, ice)
1,2,4,3, 9
Cuirass (leather, ring, scale, chain, plate, ice)
1,3,6,9,15,16
Hauberk (leather, ring, scale, chain, plate, ice)
2,5,9,13,20,22
Full (leather, ring, scale, chain, plate)
3,7,12,17,25
Barding (heavy cavalry)
20-30
Helmet (cap, full, ice cap)
2,6, 3
Weapons (dagger, spear, shortsword, broadsword, greatsword)
0,1,2,3,5
More Weapons (lance, morningstar, flail, mace, axe, battle axe)
2,2,3,1,1,3
Some ranged weapons (javelin, sling, short bow, long bow, comp bow)
1,0,1,2,3
Some more (crossbow, arbalest)
3,4
And ice (knife, mace, blade, lance)
0,2,4,2

Again, these are numbers from dom3, but I think they are valid for dom 2 as well.

This is not the full list. If some weapons are missing you probably have an idea by now what they should cost.

[Edi]

Whooaa! Methinks the Weapons & Armor DB is due an update...

Edi

[Agrajag]

Kristoffer O said:

*snip*
More information about DomII that Im going to keep. Thanks!

And what do you think about my (slightly retarted) gold cost rating system? Are there any abnormal ways to abuse it? (beside giving a unit 0 MR...).

[Zen]

You should also note that certain nations and certain themes have a reduction in gold/resource cost based on certain thematic reasonings. Nation balance for costs with this in mind also availiability of certain generic types of unit classes/magic availiable.

[Edi]

Well, updated W&A database, but another couple of questions:

Are the equivalents of base weapons that are made from unusual materials same cost, or +1 res cost to base item (e.g. coral weapons, amber armors)?

Does training possibly increase unit resource cost in some measure? I'm thinking of the Ulmish troops, for example. Oddly enough, some of the resource costs when don't add up based on the info given out above (e.g. hoplites and hoplite commanders have free weapons...).

I'm trying to do at least the common weapons into the W&A DB, and I'm extrapolating resource costs by adding up and subtracting things. Most stuff adds up, but there is the odd 1 or 2 resource deviation (armorers and blacksmiths cutting corners and making shoddier work?

So far Full Plate of Ulm appears to be between 25 and 27, though 26 appears to be the most common end result.

Also, units must cost a base resource of 1 to make the variable mean anything, so should I subtract that one from the total before I start figuring out unknown weeapons, or is the reasoning that [if Rescost == 0, then Rescost++] to eliminate the possibility of unlimited recruitment (as long as money is available, that is).

Edi

[Saber Cherry]

One way to price generic melee units (in gold) is to analyze their performance in the combat simulator, and price them proportionally...

Dom II currently has some inconsistencies in resource costs, especially between nations. This is because (prior to Dom III) all the unit resource costs have been calculated manually.

[Edi]

I know about the inconsistency, and I've been trying to take that into account when I've assessed the rescosts for the unlisted armors and weapons (not going to touch the magical ones, though!). It is still possible to calculate the costs if you do the math for several different units from all over the game, the inconsistencies I've found have been between -1 and 3 (only one of those). I'll be posting the updated W&A DB soon, with the derived ones listed with an asterisk to indicate that they are the most likely, based on my educated guesses.

Edi

[Kristoffer O]

Most units has a base cost of 1 (giants 2, not sure why).

There might have been changes to one or two of the armors.

Hoplites might have cost of iron cap while wearing full helm. IIRC that was discovered when we altered the costs.