OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[Krsqk]

Starhawk said:
Oh and my oppinion of Kerry is that he is a flipflopping jackass who wants to win on his "I won three purple hearts!" line.....so BFD my Great Uncle DIED in Nam after staying for two tours and getting hit twice....Kerry got pissant wounds (not even enough to send him home for God's sake or keep him in hospital for more then a few days) and went home after 4 months after writing his own report to make himself a hero......yeah I don't want that guy in office I'm sorry.

If one thing bothers me about this, it's the instant change in his story. Not during this campaign, but back when he returned from Vietnam. While he was there, he was filming war videos where he was the hero, so apparently he wasn't too upset about the war. In fact, that would seem to indicate he thought war was a good opportunity to display his heroism (whether in RL or just on the silver screen). However, once he got home, he all of a sudden was against the war; he had seen dozens of atrocities committed by our troops; and he even said he had committed some himself. That doesn't sound like a good way to build up his image as a war hero!

I guess my question is: What happened on the flight between Vietnam and the US to change his desire to appear to be a courageous war hero who saved the day several times?

Of course, one could also ask what happened in the past year to change his mind again, but that might be seen as a snide political attack. Maybe that whole anti-war thing was just a phase brought on by shellshock?

[Starhawk]

Problem is he is currently pro-anti-war if you listen to him he tap dances to much to tell whether he wants to stay in Iraq till it's over or whether he wants to lead the US into yet aother humiliating withdrawal ala Bosnia.

[AMF]

Bosnia was humiliating? I'm not tracking.

Starhawk said:
Problem is he is currently pro-anti-war if you listen to him he tap dances to much to tell whether he wants to stay in Iraq till it's over or whether he wants to lead the US into yet aother humiliating withdrawal ala Bosnia.

[Starhawk]

Oh.....crap I think I got the wrong country again.....I give up for tonight I'm waaaay to tired sorry.

Somalia was what I meant.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not really seeing any flipflop there. First off, alot of people were for being in the military and against vietnam. And I dont think withdrawing from Iraq now is a humiliating withdrawal. Its done. We are now fighting people we were not fighting when we went in. Thank you but dont stick around.

Of course thats a problem to discuss here. We gamers tend to have a different idea of what is involved in "winning the war" and to EVER leave the area before converting it into a part of ourselves isnt it. Lets just hope that Bush isnt a gamer.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I find it hard to beleive that the Canadian military could have sufficient equipment, given that a) we've had to ship out soldeirs by renting space in other peoples boats, b) our sea king helicopters, a major part of our air force as I understand it, are 50 years old.

Granted, I'm no expert, but that's an alarming trend.

[AMF]

heh. Helos, airplanes, ships, and pretty much everything else is too old in the US military. Ask any marine about CH-53s...

The only things that aren't too old are the newest sexiest gear of the moment. Like the Osprey, stealth bombers, JSF, etc....services LOVE to buy the latest toys, but seem to have a real hard time replacing or repairing the ones they've got...

narf poit chez BOOM said:
I find it hard to beleive that the Canadian military could have sufficient equipment, given that a) we've had to ship out soldeirs by renting space in other peoples boats, b) our sea king helicopters, a major part of our air force as I understand it, are 50 years old.

Granted, I'm no expert, but that's an alarming trend.

[TerranC]

Krsqk said:I guess my question is: What happened on the flight between Vietnam and the US to change his desire to appear to be a courageous war hero who saved the day several times?

Coming to a theatre near you: The Siamese Candidate featuring John Kerry as John Kerry...

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll go away now.

[AMF]

Oh my god, he CHANGED HIS MIND!

No, but seriously, there is no contradiction between being proud of what you are doing at the time and not in favor of the larger policies. When I was in Iraq, I took photos. Can you read my mind as well as yuo can read Kerry's and tell me why? I didn't think so.

EDIT: let me add some words that I think better explain what I mean: There is a world of difference between doing one's duty and trying to right wrongs. When he (or anyone) volounteered to go to Vietnam, to fight and perhaps die for his country, that's a powerful oath you take. You have a duty. It's not just pride in one's work, it's a calling. But, frankly (speaking from personal experience), almost getting killed tends to focus one's mind really well on what is important in life and what is not. And, I would guess that when his duty was over, he felt that he could then move on to dealing with issues or what he heard. A soldier or a marine or a sailor, is not going to disobey, be derelict, or otherwise bring shame upon their oath or their service. But when that is done, then they can reflect on what it was they were asked to do. Again, it takes a courageous man to do such reflection and come to the conclusion that the way the war was waged was wrong. END EDIT

And, perhaps he had an epiphany of sorts. When you're in-country for months and you see just one side, and then you get out and you talk to others and they tell you that they committed atrocities, that certainly could change someone's mind. And, hopefully, it *would* - again, I have a lot more respect for someone who can change their mind, especially on something of vast importance, than for someone who is going to stubbornly cling to some erroneous beleif.

That's why I can't have respect for anyone who says, at *any* point in their life, "Mistakes? I can't recall any I've made..."

That is not the type of person I'd like to be having a beer with.

Krsqk said:
If one thing bothers me about this, it's the instant change in his story. Not during this campaign, but back when he returned from Vietnam. While he was there, he was filming war videos where he was the hero, so apparently he wasn't too upset about the war. In fact, that would seem to indicate he thought war was a good opportunity to display his heroism (whether in RL or just on the silver screen). However, once he got home, he all of a sudden was against the war; he had seen dozens of atrocities committed by our troops; and he even said he had committed some himself. That doesn't sound like a good way to build up his image as a war hero!

I guess my question is: What happened on the flight between Vietnam and the US to change his desire to appear to be a courageous war hero who saved the day several times?

Of course, one could also ask what happened in the past year to change his mind again, but that might be seen as a snide political attack. Maybe that whole anti-war thing was just a phase brought on by shellshock?

[Krsqk]

alarikf said:
Oh my god, he CHANGED HIS MIND!

No, but seriously, there is no contradiction between being proud of what you are doing at the time and not in favor of the larger policies. When I was in Iraq, I took photos. Can you read my mind as well as yuo can read Kerry's and tell me why? I didn't think so.

EDIT: let me add some words that I think better explain what I mean: There is a world of difference between doing one's duty and trying to right wrongs. When he (or anyone) volounteered to go to Vietnam, to fight and perhaps die for his country, that's a powerful oath you take. You have a duty. It's not just pride in one's work, it's a calling. But, frankly (speaking from personal experience), almost getting killed tends to focus one's mind really well on what is important in life and what is not. And, I would guess that when his duty was over, he felt that he could then move on to dealing with issues or what he heard. A soldier or a marine or a sailor, is not going to disobey, be derelict, or otherwise bring shame upon their oath or their service. But when that is done, then they can reflect on what it was they were asked to do. Again, it takes a courageous man to do such reflection and come to the conclusion that the way the war was waged was wrong. END EDIT

And, perhaps he had an epiphany of sorts. When you're in-country for months and you see just one side, and then you get out and you talk to others and they tell you that they committed atrocities, that certainly could change someone's mind. And, hopefully, it *would* - again, I have a lot more respect for someone who can change their mind, especially on something of vast importance, than for someone who is going to stubbornly cling to some erroneous beleif.

That's why I can't have respect for anyone who says, at *any* point in their life, "Mistakes? I can't recall any I've made..."

That is not the type of person I'd like to be having a beer with.

I don't claim to be able to read his mind. His actions simply seem to indicate that he thought war was fine, or at least that being a hero in a war was fine. All right, no complaints there. But you can't say he simply just changed his mind about war, because he came back and said that he himself committed war crimes! That's not "Well, I used to think war was good, but now I've been enlightened to the evil we're doing"--by his own testimony, he was evil during his four months over there, while at the same time he was making films which promoted war. Something just doesn't add up there. If he had honestly just changed his mind, then I could handle that. But apparently, he held both of those opposing viewpoints simultaneously. Maybe he's just a little more open-minded than I am.

He didn't just "see the big picture" once he got out--he was right there involved in it (his atrocities). That didn't have anything to do with his duty or following orders. If he did commit them, why did he come back and say so? Conviction for that can bring some serious penalties, and he basically confessed in open testimony. And if he really did commit them, how can he say he is "proud" of his service to our country? That doesn't sound like something one can be proud of.

I repeat myself--either he was involved in war crimes while he was making war films, or he lied in his testimony and never saw or committed any war crimes. Either way, his motives are suspect.