Did God Invent Us, Or Did We Invent Him

[Atrocities]

Will said:

In my view, the more pertinent question is why do we think humans were "invented"?

My response to this would, because we have nothing to go on except the belief that we either evolved from pond scum, or were engineered. I believe that both are valid, or that even combined they are more valid. We are engineered pond scum, or better yet, an engineered virus that kills planets.

[Azselendor]

By saying we evolved from pond scum is simply an overly simplified way of refering to the process of Evolution. Understand, Evolution has no direct purpose except to make use of energy in the most efficient way. What put humans ahead of our other cousins is that we managed to develop a means to plan ahead for the long term. Not one or two seasons, but three or four years and reason out problems that arise.

I do believe our origins tie back to simple ocean dwelling microbes and that via natural competition with other species, we evolved from that and obtained a wholely original place in nature.

Now, the thing about religion and me is choice. religion just didn't make sense to me because it didn't allow me the choices I wanted to make. It is a great foundation for morality and an excellent collection of ethics. Some of my own are drawn from the Bible, the Vedas, Classical Civilization, Native American mythos, and such.

Take the sacrifice of Jesus. It's about one man, willing to die for his belief that humanity can be better than what it was and that his death will wipe earth clean of sin. Go over to India, the God Shiva consumed the sins of the world in his effort to save it - almost killing himself (it's why shive wears a snake around his neck). Both are great tales of self-sacrifice and hope for humanity's better nature.

But I wandered off topic.

I think we occured naturally, not as a fluke or enginneered. Life itself happens where ever it can take root, only the conditions determine how far that goes and what form it takes.

[Kamog]

I once read in a book the following argument: Out of the three statements below, only two of them can be true:
(1) God is all powerful
(2) God is all good
(3) Terrible things happen

If God knows that there is evil but cannot prevent it, he is not all-powerful. If he doesn't know that there's evil, he's not omnisicent. If he knows that there is evil but does not wish to prevent it, then he is not all good.

The only possible way that all three can be true, is if God knows there is evil in the world but chooses not to stop it for reasons that are beyond our understanding.

[Mephisto]

Mmm, I can think of 2 explanations for terrible things to happen out of my box:

a) It is for a greater good not (yet) seen by us.

b) Free will. The Christian believe is that man was created in the image of good. Man has the ability of free will and choice. He choose to do good or evil, belive or not believe to create or destroy. Hence good can be good and all powerful but choose to give us free will so that evil not by his doing is possible.

[Will]

Atrocities said:My response to this would, because we have nothing to go on except the belief that we either evolved from pond scum, or were engineered. I believe that both are valid, or that even combined they are more valid. We are engineered pond scum, or better yet, an engineered virus that kills planets.

(boldness mine) AT... have you been watching The Matrix again?

Just curious, are you taking the (God >= Universe) position here, or something else? If it is the former, is it of the "more than" or "same as" variety?

[Gandalf Parker]

Personally whenever anything comes up questioning belief my attitude tends to be "who cares". Some would say that beliefs are harmful and the same effects can be achieved by science. Trading "faith in an outside source" for things like "power of positive thinking" or "self-hypnosis". But for many people having strong faith in self or science is more difficult therefore achieves less good. Best results are still a good goal and I dont really care how anyone gets there.

-- [sig file]
Be thankful. Be thankful to God, Goddess, Thetans, Honorable Ancestors, Spirit Guides, or the Random Chance Happenings over Millions of Millenia. But be thankful.

[Atrocities]

Will, I honestly don't know what position I am taking other than to say that the universe is virtually endless and is the oldest thing known to man therefore there are bound to be things that we do not yet understand, and perhaps the concept of God is one of them.

[bax]

Holy, deep thread Batman. I think about God alot. Or, the concept of God, I should say. And that's what I think needs clearing up. You can talk all you want about "God" but what's the definition? A "person-like" presence, up there, in charge of it all. Unlikely. So, no I don't think God "invented" us.

The argument of "what are the odds that humanity could arise out of simple chance??" doesn't hold because if you look at it that way you can also say. Well, if this is one of the possibilities, of course it's happening somewhere.

No matter what, all that really matters is what we choose to do. We can use faith to either decide we believe in God, or to not believe in him. There is no proof. Either way our daily conduct matters.

Atrocities: you asked the question, and I wonder what you think more precisely? What makes me curious is the belief in fate and freewill. Whether or not there is a God. Whether or not he invented us, or we invented him...

Do we have a destiny?
Are we really in control of the decisions we make?
Does everything happen for a reason?

[Atrocities]

Have any of you ever read the book Sphere? Not the movie, as the movie was quite bad. The book is very interesting in that it makes you believe that what you think becomes your reality.

Don't ask me why, but it is one of the better books I have read in recent years, and for some odd ball reason, I honestly believe that in some small way what we think does effect events in our lives.

If you have faith and believe in God, then the belief itself has a reality for you. If you do not believe in God, then that to is a reality.

What if God is real and God gave us the power to make our own way in this demension / reality? What if we have all forgotten how to use that ability, or worse, have given it up?

One thing that cannot be denied about anything is that the universe is so vast, so incredable that anything is possible. All because we have not thought it up, or cannot expain it, does not mean that it does not exisit or that it defies comprehension. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that we thought the world was flat and cruicified those who said it was round. Keep an open mind and be willing to accept the facts as they are proven without killing the messinger.

[Azselendor]

The Movie Sphere was about that! Holy crap, that movie was really bad.