OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by HiveLordJim:
I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your “Forefathers” massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
“The Constitution” which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.

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All true, and all totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand. You are bringing up evils that the united states has committed over 100 years ago. Everybody guilty of these crimes you mention is dead and buried. Tianamin square was TEN years ago. The parties responsible for that are still in power in many cases.

Besides the fact that almost every nation in the world today exsists over the bones of some displaced or massacered indigenous population. "Give Europe back to the Cro-Magnon Man! They were there first!"

quote:

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The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people – its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.

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Uh, yeah. This is true to, only beacuse we were the first to develop it. You don't think Hitler or Tojo would have loved dropping the nuke on us if they had got it first? And the fact remains that more Japanese lives would have been lost in an invasion than were lost in the two atomic bobms that were dropped.

quote:

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The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).

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Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.

quote:

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The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it’s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.

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Whatever.

Geo



[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 July 2001).]

[dogscoff]

I'm kicking myslf already for getting into this but I had to make this point:


QUOTE:
However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product ... So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP.
/QUOTE

Sorry but that argument is nonsense. You don't *need* to produce C02 to generate GNP. The two _are_ currently linked, but that link can and must be broken. As one of the world's richer and more technologically advanced nations the US should be helping to set an example by switching that GNP to renewable energy.

QUOTE:
What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?
/QUOTE

The question is, how much are *you* willing to pay? At the moment it's costing you your environment. (And mine.)



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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Kimball]

True, Dogscoff. I just wanted to make a point. I have rather enjoyed hearing how we, the US, are such horrible people.

Oh, well, at least I can call my president an idiot (for backing out of Kyoto amoung other things) without getting thrown in jail, or just disappearing, like in certain communist countries.

[Nitram Draw]

The Kyoto agreement is pretty much of a joke. Assigning allowable pollution levels, how does that work? When have 55 nations ever agreed on anything for more than 25 years. We will reduce pollution when we develop alternative fuels, it's as simple as that and it won't be developed here or in Europe. The oil companies (Royal Dutch Shell, British Petroleum, Elf, Exxon) are too powerful.

HiveLord,
Should we just stand by and let human rights abuse occur because of our past? Do we need to wait until some non-guilty country points it out and then asks for our help?

[capnq]

quote:

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I think europeans have way more insight in the US than the other way around (thanks to TV and Hollywood).

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If you honestly believe that TV and Hollywood accurately portray life in the US, your naivete' (sp?) frightens me.

quote:

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The negative aspects are mostly:

-the US is too centralized
-People starve
-People get executed
-****ed up morality
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)

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I can't think of a country on Earth that has none of these problems. Many don't execute criminals, and a few don't have strong religious convictions, but every other problem you list is endemic to humanity.

quote:

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-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)

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A lot of the people who are actually paying the taxes to provide that foreign aid think it's excessive, especially since a lot of it ends up greasing the pockets of corrupt foreign officials rather than actually helping people.

quote:

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The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).

Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.

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I suspect he's referring to giving Native Americans blankets that had belonged to smallpox victims. Germ warfare was around long before the Industrial Age, though.


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Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[parwez]

Hey Kimball,

In defense of the former communist countries.
when in one of the Baltic countries (Estonia, Lithinua, Lativia) as opposed to balkland - around Former Yugoslovia)
had only one candidate standing in the elections (no surprises there) and the majority of the electrorate crossed out the name or indicated they wanted to vote against him. The candidate was not elected.

In OUR liberal democracies, (I live in the UK) we cannot vote against a candidate and if a candidate stands unopposed, (s)he get automatically elected.

and you are naive if you think people only disappear outside liberal democracies and our governments are there to serve the public interest whilst those over there only serve the ruling party.

Our governments have better spin-doctors, are more subtle at manipulating facts and we are less critical of them, then people in the countries ('where people disapear').

Our education system is based on the system that came into force during WW2, when the pirority was a loyal, obident workforce.

In the words of Pink Floyd, we don't need no mind control, ...hey teacher leave that kid alone.

It's not the people in the US or UK that are horrible, it's the governments. The people are okay, those who see through the lies are simply labled by the state as trouble makers and are linked with trouble makers.

If a capitalist factory owner was to pollute a river with his waste, it would be unreasonable to treat all factory owners as if this was their intention.

Yet when a single protestor goes beyond the limit, of what is acceptable, all the treated by the states as if they intention was the same. This was the message is lost and action can be delayed. The big companies backing BUSH, know they will loss the battle eventually when it becomes blantly obvious to all the damage they are causing, but they want to delay that date as much as possible, so they can make a quick buck, or position themselves better in the market place for the next round

[Nitram Draw]

Parwez,
Sometimes I wish we could vote for none of the above. Glad you can do it.
I see a lot of critisism of the US government, here and elsewhere, by Europeans. I'd like to remind them that our country has been in existence, is basically its current form, longer than Italy, Belguim, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia and numerous nations. Keep that in mind when you bash the US for being an incompentant/cruel nation. We taught you a lot, if you were observent.