modders and shipset creators - please read

[Puke]

had a thought when i read about high movement potential on LCs below. i thought, what good is that? interceptors are cool, but they need punch. and if it does not spend much space on armor or weapons, its going to be a throw away ship. its not like speed makes you harder to hit, although with some long range missiles you could do hit and run tactics.

and then i thought, man, it would be cool if a faster ship did more damage when ramming. but the game does not work that way. Then it hit me: Build in bonus ramming damage (cobalt kamakazi warhead thing) to each engine, doing more damage for bigger engines. same for solar sail, and same for afterburners. that will figure that you will hit at your max speed, and the faster you go the more damage you do. now, while F=MA, and this does not figure for M, you can let that ballance out by the higher damage resistance of a larger ship, or maybe building in damage potential to the hulls in the same way. then i guess it would be f=m+a which isnt quite the same, but probably as good as it could get.

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[Suicide Junkie]

A most excellent idea!
(though there is a problem with your physics)
F=MA.
It looked like you were using F= force of the crash, M= mass of the ship, A= acceleration due to engines.
The engines aren't used during the crash; the acceleration is from the two hulls meeting.
If you knew the acceleration caused by the impact (eg. 1000 KM/s to zero in 0.1 seconds), then you'd know the force.

A more useful measure for damage in this case is probably kinetic energy. E=0.5 M V^2

A warhead damage of 10 or so per engine would not guarantee your own ship's destruction, but cost the enemy more hitpoints. Plus, in P&N v2, it would be damage = mass x Speed (Real Life: damage = mass x (speed ^2))
(SE4 classic: damage = speed)

Expect to see this in P&Nv2.1, along with more armor types & some minor changes.

PS: to create a hyperlink, use
[ url=www.shrapnelgames.com]ClickMe[/url]
without the leading space.

quote:

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REPAIRED LINK:
Anyway, please look at the page on hull data bearing the following in mind:

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The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 July 2001).]

[Andrés]

quote:

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The BattleMoon pic is placed in the generic/default race folder, so any race that does not have a battlemoon pic will use the one I copied. (Large, smoothish vaccuum-rock planet with the mean looking crater on it)
Any race that includes their own battlemoon pic will use their personal one by default. Also, any race style that includes a battlemoon pic should be fully compatible with any other mod.

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That must be made a rule for any new vehicle size that uses a new picture. Even if you make a custom picture for every shipset and neutral players are not likely to use this size, the picture in the RaceGeneric dir is indispensable because it will be used by any new shipset you add.

quote:

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These extra images *can* be implemented without hardcode changes if modders are prepared to support them, and this is the beginning of my campaign to make it happen.

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The main problems with new sizes are first that some AI may not be prepared to use some of the new sizes (for example I had to add a new item in all designcreation files to make my infantry work) and will be in disadvantage, and second the lack of new pictures for shipsets not specifically prepared. That will force you to use only pics in the RaceGeneric dir or use the same pic of other shipsize. There is a third alternative that is copying and renaming one of the default sizes to make the new size picture (IIRC some people did this to make the baseship use a different picture from the starbase, if you look around you'll find some shipsets include a baseship picture), but of course that if you have many shipsets and many new sizes this would be too much work and having two identical files with different names in every directory looks like a waste of hardrive space, and will make the "more vehicle sizes" mod file unnecessarily big.

BTW, some time ago there was a post in se4@yahooGroups with a suggested list of vehiclesizes and Kt of each. I have erased it from my system, but will check history in yahoGroups web site to find it.

I have a few new sizes in my starwars mod.
* Infantry: Some players have asked for this size and I believe it will be a great addition to your chart. Note that it's useless without the specific custom components (Infantry Rifles). The custom pic in the default race dir comes from the boarding party comp with changed colors to match neutral race shipset. Also some of my shipsets have specific infantry pics.
And these are very specific of the starwars mod (only available for players with a specific racial advantage) and I'm not sure if suitable for more general mod.
* TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber and TIE Advanced are fighters that can only have 2 engines but have combat movement bonus and are fast in battle, these sizes use fighter pics.
* Small, Medium and Large Death Star may be similar to battlemoons, I have use 3 different custom pics in the default race dir.

Andrés Lescano

The StarWars mod http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/tech/sw-mod/

The main index of my site http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/

[Atrocities]

Sounds good to me.

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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG
New Age Ship Yards

[dogscoff]

[quote]Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:
some AI may not be prepared to use some of the new sizes

Fair enough, but thaa's not my problem. I'm just worried about the images, not the AI. Many mods do alter vehiclesizes.txt, and I'm just catering for them.

[quote]Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:

There is a third alternative that is copying and renaming one of the default sizes to make the new size picture ... too much work ... a waste of hardrive space ... will make the "more vehicle sizes" mod file unnecessarily big.


Well, the work would only have to be done once, by the modder. As for the file size - I can't disagree, but your average HD won't notice an extra 5 or even 15 meg. The download would be a pain but it would only be a one off- and remember that zipping a .bmp file will take 70 or 80% off of it's size. Someone could even create a batch file to generate all the duplicate images locally on the user's machine.

As long as there are default images though it doesn't really matter if each race has the extra images or not. Any mod which includes default images might as well point to the race directory first, just in case a special image is available.

[quote]Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:

BTW, some time ago there was a post in se4@yahooGroups with a suggested list of vehiclesizes and Kt of each.

Sounds interesting. Thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:

I have a few new sizes in my starwars mod.
* Infantry: ... And these are very specific of the starwars mod

OK, well if any other modders want to use infantry, I'll try to get them to use the same filenames as you, so any shipsets which include the picture will be compatible with a larger number of mods.

[quote]Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:

* TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber and TIE Advanced are fighters that can only have 2 engines but have combat movement bonus and are fast in battle, these sizes use fighter pics.

OK, I'll look at the vehiclesizes.txt of your mod. Yours isn't the only mod to use extra fighter sizes, so there might be a clash there already.

[quote]Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:

* Small, Medium and Large Death Star may be similar to battlemoons, I have use 3 different custom pics in the default race dir.

OK, another clash. I'd like to agree a common filename for battlemoon / death star images so that the Star Wars and P&N mods could share images.

Thanks for all the data, anyway. I will update the table to include *all* the entries in *all* the vehiclesizes.txt files mentioned so far. It might be several days until I can get it uploaded so bear with me.

I'll also include links to each mod's homepage, unless I receive objections.

Furthermore, with the permission of the authors I'd like to create a central "bank" of default vehicle images for non-standard ships and units.

Thanks for your help everyone, keep them coming in. I'd like some confirmation from TDM that the standard vehilesizes.txt isn't altered in their mod - That would be in keeping with your "non- interference" policy wouldn't it?

What about all those other mods? Haven't heard from Spoogy in a while, and I seem to recall a zippy mod? There must be more besides. C'mon people, it's not often I get this motivatd...

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[dogscoff]

Suicide_Junkie

Still looking through your mod... there are some more sizes you didn't mention:

Resource Base
Resource Ship
Massive fighter
Drop Pod

These will all be added into the table, since some people might want to create custom images for these. For example, your resource base and resource ship could use images designed for Devnullmod's mining base and prospector ships. There are also at least 2 other mods with extra fighter sizes.

If I can persuade you all to use the same filename for these ships in your mods, each mod would benefit from extra images designed for the others. You see?

I don't think I've been explaining this concept very well from the start. Say I create a shipset with a battlemoon pic for the P&N mod. I would name it race_battlemoon_portrait.bmp and it would work fine. However, if someone wants to use my race in Andres' Star Wars Mod, they'll want to use the battlemoon as a Death Star. Unfortunately, the Star Wars mod might require the filename "race_DeathStar_portrait.bmp" - what then?

That's what my webpage is for. If modders can agree on some standard filenames, shipset creators will be encouraged to put in those extra images and modders will be able to produce far prettier mods.

Of course, you're going to say "But what about the races that don't have specialised image?"
Simple: Create additional default generic pictures by copying and renaming the generic pics. (Pretty much as you have with the battlemoon)

If you like you could also copy and rename pics for for all unsupported races in your mod, if you want them to look specific rather than generic.

Sorry if I'm starting to sound preachy, but I'm a man with a mission now...

I have already drawn a prospector for my viking set. Please take a look at Space Vikings!

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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Still looking through your mod... there are some more sizes you didn't mention:

Resource Base
Resource Ship
Massive fighter
Drop Pod

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I did mention the drop pod, but it was an edit, so you may have missed it.

P&N special shipsizes
-Resource Base
-Resource Ship
-Heavy Fighter
-Massive Fighter
-Drop Pod
-BattleMoon
The nomads get a bonus two levels in fighter tech, so they have two extra fighter sizes.

I did note that others were mentioning "infantry", and having a handweapons component.
IMO, there should be an infantry component, which you put in drop pods or landing craft of some sort.

quote:

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I don't think I've been explaining this concept very well from the start. Say I create a shipset with a battlemoon pic for the P&N mod. I would name it race_battlemoon_portrait.bmp and it would work fine. However, if someone wants to use my race in Andres' Star Wars Mod, they'll want to use the battlemoon as a Death Star. Unfortunately, the Star Wars mod might require the filename "race_DeathStar_portrait.bmp" - what then?

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I suggest we forget about using the terminology of any one mod. Instead of calling the picture "battlemoon" or "deathstar", make it "Large base ship"
Terminology from classic SE4 is best;
How about this:
Use the closest term from SE4,
then add a prefix of "Small"/"Medium"/"Large"/"Heavy"/"Massive" to indicate size (from standard ship sizes plus weapon mount names)
I don't think that many mods would have more than 5 Versions of any one thing.

We would get "Remote Miner" for prospectors and resource ships,
"Large BaseShip","Heavy BaseShip","Massive BaseShip" for the DeathStar sizes.
Battlemoons could use "Massive BaseShip"

------------------
The latest info onPirates & Nomads (forum thread).
-<Download V2.0>-
-<Download V1.6>-
-<Download compatible EMPs for P&N v1.6>-
-<SJs latest AI Patcher>-
Visit My Homepage

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 July 2001).]