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Old February 4th, 2005, 11:21 AM

sachmo sachmo is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

Quote:
Baron Munchausen said:
A degree doesn't make you automatically right. The 'debunker' makes several obvious mistakes himself, such as the mass of the black holes. It is clearly stated in Titor's posts that they are around 200 pounds each, so that the machine is around 500 pounds total. And yet he insists on claiming that he couldn't possibly have a machine that size with a metric ton (2,200 lbs) of black holes in it. Well, since he doesn't claim to have one, the impossibility of this 'fact' doesn't amount to a 'disproof' of anything, does it? This is called the 'straw man' in logic. A fake rebuttal of something that the other party didn't claim.

I repeat, he didn't claim to know the science, so his knowledge of the science isn't a worthwhile test of his reliability. Would you like to compare "Titor's" description of how his time machine works with the current 'man on the street' description of things like nuclear power plants or even plain old consumer PCs or passenger cars?

The internal consistency of the predictions is much more interesting. There are some potential problems, but it's been a while since I read the material and don't have the time/motivation to go back and find the problems I had noticed again.

Your username just clicked with me.

I'm not going to get into a dragout over this, Baron. It seems that Titor has protected himself from skepicism by claiming "not to know much about" certain subjects.

In my experience, the most logical conclusion is generally the correct one. The simplest and most logical conclusion is that Titor is a fraud, and he did not time travel. Reading the explination of this scientists was more than enough evidence to support that conclusion for me, but as I've said before, you can slice it any way you wish, discount whatever you want, to make something true.

Sort of reminds me of the way religion works, but I think I'll let that one lie for now.
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Old February 4th, 2005, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Just an interesting article that appeared today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4229545.stm

I suppose a very well informed hoaxer who is probably a very intelligent person can create a lot of havoc when they have plenty of time to do reseach. I am amazed at this very intricate hoax that John Titor put together in 3 months. Makes me want to really study it closer to see what else he managed to get right or wrong.
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Old February 4th, 2005, 02:19 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

Quote:
Gozra said:
Just an interesting article that appeared today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4229545.stm

I suppose a very well informed hoaxer who is probably a very intelligent person can create a lot of havoc when they have plenty of time to do reseach. I am amazed at this very intricate hoax that John Titor put together in 3 months. Makes me want to really study it closer to see what else he managed to get right or wrong.
They were building one of those in Texas, but funding was cut. It's now a mushroom farm.
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Old February 4th, 2005, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog bites you. Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog bites you. Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog bites you. You die...
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Old February 4th, 2005, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Which roguelike is that?
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Old February 4th, 2005, 07:32 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

Quote:
Ed Kolis said:
Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog bites you. Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog bites you. Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog bites you. You die...


I kell him with broken pottery!
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Old February 4th, 2005, 07:38 PM

Baron Munchausen Baron Munchausen is offline
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Default Re: America the Police State

Quote:
Gozra said:
Just an interesting article that appeared today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4229545.stm

I suppose a very well informed hoaxer who is probably a very intelligent person can create a lot of havoc when they have plenty of time to do reseach. I am amazed at this very intricate hoax that John Titor put together in 3 months. Makes me want to really study it closer to see what else he managed to get right or wrong.
There is the problem of verification. If the self-described time traveler 'predicts' things that you can see developing yourself, he looks 'convincing' because you already believe these things. The CERN super-collider has been in the works for decades, and they have been talking all the while of generating quantum singularities. No 'expertise' beyond reading some popular science magazines is necessary to have learned about this. So saying that quantum singularities were produced at CERN and led to time travel is already semi-believable because we're primed for it. Similarly, the split in US society has been apparent since at least the 1960s, and I think anyone who paid any attention to the Waco debacle and the aftermath (the 'militia' movement) can see the growing hostility (and numbers) of the anti-government groups on the fringes of our society. A civil war is a very real possibility for the future of the US, but I would have put the expected date a few more decades into the future -- prior to the 9-11 events, that is. So a prediction of a civil war in the US is not too difficult to believe either. Blend these trends and some other information (like the 'many worlds' hypothesis) into a coherent narrative and you've got a decent SciFi story -- or maybe a good hoax -- because it jibes with what we already expect of the future.

If the time traveler describes something completely off the wall, on the other hand, we don't want to believe it because it doesn't meet our expectations. The EU attacking Russia, for example. It's very difficult to figure out how this could come about, but it's one of the things that Titor claimed happened in his history. But who would have believed him if he'd said that a terrorist attack on the US mainland would kill thousands before the year was over? (And he gave good reasons for not being so specific, so the fact that he did not point out this obvious event is not an automatic disproof of his knowledge.)

So judging the 'veracity' of a claimed time traveler is a pretty tricky thing. Going by our expectations is not useful because the real world doesn't have to follow our expectations. John Lennon is credited with the saying 'Life is what happens to you while you're making other plans' but I think someone else said it first. We'll just have to wait & see how things develop.
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Old February 5th, 2005, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: America the Police State

Everyone who beleives in time travel, you have -5 minutes to tell me, in person.
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Old February 7th, 2005, 12:39 PM

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Default Re: America the Police State

Sorry Narf, but I dont want to relive the last three days over again... so you are going to just have to accept that if I wanted to I could have done back to 2/4/05 8:00pm then traveled to tell you by 10:09 pm...

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Old February 7th, 2005, 03:13 PM
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Just a sample of the John Titor talk. I keep hearing tidbits that alarm me I hope I am not turning into an alarmist. ( the mad cow thing is what I keep tripping over)

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 29
pamela: 1.I will ask you about your environment then and I want to know about the family life and also about your religion. what religion has survived? Do you believe in Jesus Christ or someone else. Do people still pray to God? Do you still have churches?
timetravel_0: Yes I believe in Jesus Christ and we pray to God in churches. There aresome differences you may be interested in. Religion is a major part ofpeoples life in 2036. Pain and change tend to bring people together andcloser to God. However, religion is far more personal than it is now. There are no huge, centralized religions and people talk openly about theirbeliefs. It might also interest you to know that the day of worship is Saturday, the day God meant to be the Sabbath and the 10 commandments have been restored to the "10" that God gave us.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 30
pamela: 2. what kind of jobs do people do and do they still work long hours? whats the majority of job types in the future?
timetravel_0: Life is much more rural in the future but "high" technology is used to communicate and travel. People raise a great deal of their own food and do more "farm" work. Yes, compared to now, we do work long hours. After the war, my father made a living selling oranges up and down the West coast of Florida . My closest friend raises horses and another works for a company that maintains "wireless" internet nodes.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 31
pamela: 3.what is a typical day like for someone in your time? do you still havethe internet? has it advanced to all virtual reality yet? what type of diseases are you currently dealing with? are there still advances in science?
timetravel_0: A typical day...hmmm. Life has changed so much over my lifetime that it's hard to pin down a "normal" day. When I was 13, I was a soldier. As a teenager, I helped my dad haul cargo. I went to college when I was 31 and I was recruited to "time travel" shortly after that. Again...I suppose an average day in 2036 is like an average day on the farm.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 32
pamela: 4.Is there still a post office? how do you receive messages from one another? you said most people talk face to face.
timetravel-0: Yes...there is a post office. The internet is still alive and well in the future. People spend more time talking because life is more centered around the community. I've noticed the same type of effect here when the power goes off. People tend to come out of their homes and actually spend time with their neighbors. There is a lot more personal trust and less paranoia.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 33
pamela: 5.what type of houseing do you live in?
timetravel_0: When I'm with my parents, I live in a community made up of "tree houses" on a large river in Florida . The river floods sometimes and we have access to the Gulf. Most of our neighbors make a living off the sea or in moving cargo by boat.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 34
pamela: 6.what started the war? and who fought in it? who won?what countries were destroyed and what survived?
timetravel_0: Wow...that's a big question. There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe . The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska .

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 35
There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 36
In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe .

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 37
The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won.

07 November 2000 21:23 (predictions for the future) 38
The European Union and China were also destroyed.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 39
Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska .

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 40
pamela: 7.did you ever discover what aliens were and ufos?
timetravel_0: No new information there. I find that an interesting subject myself. Personally, I think "UFOs" might be time travelers with very sophisticated distortion units. But that might be a bit wacky.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 41
pamela: 8. what type of environmental problems do you know of that exist? do you have pure water to drink? are you mostly vegetarian-seems how most people are going that way today.
timetravel_0: One of the biggest reasons why food production is localized is because the environment is so screwed up with disease and radiation. We are making huge strides in getting it cleaned up. Water is produced on a community level and we do eat meat..that we raise ourselves.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 42
pamela: 9. are they still messing around with genetics? and altering the food and animals?
timetravel_0: Yes...genetic engineering is used but it's like any other technology. It can be good and bad. One thing we did not do was create more hybrid seeds. What are people thinking???

07 November 2000 21: (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 43
I do not believe faith alone is enough to get us back to God. I'm not sure what happens when we die but I'm pretty sure it's not a walk in the park.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 44
pamela: 11. do you have an advances in spacetravel or exploration?
timetravel_0: No. We are working on it.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 45
pamela: 12. what new inventions do we have to look forward to?
timetravel_0: Hmmm....I hesitate to answer but I'll give a bit. Hydrogen fuel cells and more efficient solar cells are big deals. Computer technology and software gets MUCH better.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 46
As a community, we celebrate much more and have bon fires and dances.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 47
pamela: 14. what are your schools and universities like?
timetravel_0: After the war, early new communities gathere
d around the current Universities. That's where the libraries were. I went to school at Fort UF which is now called the University of Florida . Not too much is different except the military is large part of people's life and we spend a great deal of time in the fields and farms at the "University" or Fort.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 48
Yes, we have cameras. More digital. Film is used like painting is today. No hologram camera though.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 49
pamela: 16. do you still have telephones? what is your major source of energy that you use? solar power? electricity? have you discovered new energies.
timetravel_0: Yes we have phones but the service is through the web. Most power generation is localized. It amazes me how much power is wasted now. Yes, solar is big. There is thought that a singularity generator could also be used but most people are against it.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 50
pamela: 17. how do you take care of your elderly? and your poor and your orphans? and the ones who cannot work?
timetravel_0: The elderly are highly revered and looked after on a community level. So are orphans. There is always something people can do now matter what. The idea of avoiding work is looked down on. Everyone pulls together to keep the COMMUNITY strong.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 51
pamela: 18. what is the dress style of the time what do you wear on your bodies as a style?
timetravel_0: Hats are more common in the future and flashy colors are less common. Dress is much more functional and we "dress up" when ever we get a chance. I have noticed that no one in this time dresses for occasions even when they have the clothes. Why do people wear shorts to church?

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 52
pamela: 19. do people wear their hair differently than we do?every generation has a different style what is the style of your time? what is popular for kids to wear? for adults to wear?
timetravel-0: We do not spend nearly the amount of time on our hair as people do now. Women like to wear their hair longer and men have it much shorter. Both sexes shave it all off when they're in active military service.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 53
pamela: 20. are surgeries mostly performed by lasars? or were there new technologies developed?
timetravel_o: Far less medical treatment in the future even though its more advanced. People die when they now its time to die. No lasers. Genetic medicine and cloning organs are the obvious new techs in the future.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 54
pamela: 21. do you still have the current form of government, presidents and vice presidents like we do?
timetravel_0: No. The Constitution was changed after the war. We have 5 presidents that are voted in and out on different term periods. The vice president is the president of the senate and they are voted separately.

07 November 2000 21:23 (about the future) 55
pamela: 22. how do you get from one place to another with not many cars around.do you teleport from one place to another?
timetravel_0: We have cars...just not a whole bunch of them. There is public transportation from city to city.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about time travel) 56
Yes, you could travel to a future that was 0.5 seconds ahead of now but not with my machine. The C204 uses the second as the basic unit of measure. The C206 may be capable of .05 sec.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about time travel) 57
(In the same vien, if you just happened to arrive at "the year 2000" a fraction of a second in my past, or future would I ever know that you just 'landed soonby"?)
No "you" would not. But the "you" on that world line would.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about time travel) 58
(In other words, what makes this time line be 'now' at any given moment versus being any other time. We exist as A point on a time LINE, what is it that defines that point?)
It is believed there are some sort of measurable quantum differences in world lines. I am not an expert on that so I can offer little information.

07 November 2000 22:18 (about the future) 59
(As far as how wonderfull your people are in the time after the war I'm very happy for you. Maybe they succeded in wiping out the RIGHT 3billion people.)
Yes, we did.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 60
(1.Without going into detail what you are here specifically for can you please explain what the primary purpose of time travel is in the future?)
In 2036, a great deal of effort is going into "repairing" our environment. I was sent to 1975 to get a computer system and take it back to 2036. Time travel is not a secret in 2036 and I expect it will become more common.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 61
(2.Why it is used and how often to your knowledge it is used.?)
Right now, its used to get information or "items" that would be helpful in getting a post WWIII world back to a normal condition. There are 7 other time travelers in my unit.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 62
(3.Are there specific time periods time .travelers go to most?)
Right now, most of our practical missions are from 1960 to 1980. There is a great deal of research into later and future periods but the farther you go, the lower the divergence confidence of the world line.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 63
(4.you stated there were several time machines available are they all active at this time to your knowledge?)
Yes.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 64
(5.What kind of car are you going to go back in since you sold the Chevy?)
It's a 1987 4WD. The vehicle needs a strong suspension system to handle the weight of the distortion unit.

08 November 2000 22:27 (about time travel) 65
(6.Are you able to take people with you in the same car back to your time or another time?)
Yes.

11 November 2000 18:46 (about time travel) 66
(If you change "vehical" do you have to re-calibrate the unit?)
Yes. But its a function of the VGL system. A gravity baseline is taken and rechecked every thime the unit is used. A new vehicle would alter the gravity signature.

11 November 2000 18:46 (about time travel) 67
(What kind of coils are used to contain, and maintain the singularity?)
I am not a phycist so I can not answer that to your level of sophistication. The singularities are held in an enclosed magnetic field.

11 November 2000 18:46 (about time travel) 68
Can your unit also dimensionally travel?)
No. However, the longer the unit is on past a safe divergance confidence, the "stranger" the world line becomes. The unit I have is safe to about 1% for every sixty years at max power.

11 November 2000 18:56 (about time travel) 69
(If your conveyence is accurate to one second then you must have a reason for picking the particular second or at least particular day or week, you did.)
My goal was to reach a certain date and time which is converted into seconds for the computer to make its calculations. I do not pick the second. Its more important to have a low divergance confidence number.

11 November 2000 18:56 (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 70
(Let me guess, you are here NOW to look at the unusual hung election we have going on. Or maybe this is the trigger event in the comming world wide econmic meltdown? Some other piviot point in history? Fess up. Why now?)
I would use the word "elections" a bit cautiously. Perhaps its easier now to see a civil war in your future?

11 November 2000 19:11 (about time travel) 71
(10 years an hour? from 2036 wouldnt that take three+ hours?? how could you survive with merly the pocket of air you caught in your vehicle's field??)
Yes...that's about right but my initial trip was to 1975, not 2000. I guess its a question of how many technical details you really want or you feel I'm making up. We do take addtional 02 and the air pocket is a bit larger than you might think.

12 November 2000 16:41 (predictions for the future) 72
I am here for personal reasons. For a few months now, I have bee trying to alert anyone that would listen to the possibility of a civil war in the United States in 2005.

12 November 2000 16:41 (past predictions) 73
I am curious… will anyone be upset if Florida’s votes are not counted in the Electoral College because of the current “confusion”?

15 November 2000 14:12 (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 74
(The one thing that you are REALLY REALLY NOT supposed to do is show up with something that might be percieved to be "dangerous".)
Have you considered that your society might be better off if half of you were dead?

15 November 2000 14:20 (predictions for the future) 75
It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering belief...but you will find that out yourself in 2005.

15 November 2000 14:33 (about time travel) 76
(One last question, Can anybody operate the 204 unit? Or is it safe guarded by a "key of some kind? Thanks for answering. Yes, you would be welcome at my home.)
The unit has two security systems to protect it from "most" people. One, it has a code that must be entered correctly. Second, and probably more effective now, the unit can not be used by anyone who can't add and subtract.

15 November 2000 14:41 (about time travel) 77
The first "leg" of my trip was from 2036 to 1975. After two VGL checks, the divergance was estimated at about 2.5% (from my 2036). I was "sent" to get an IBM computer system called the 5100. It was one the first portable computers made and it has the ability to read the older IBM programming langages in addition to APL and Basic. We need they system to "debug" various lagacy computer programs in 2036. UNIX has a problem in 2038.

17 November 2000 09:34 (about time travel) 78
It is thought that being close to a gravitational field has a biological effect on all matter including cells. The effect is to slow the movement of electrons in the orbits of their nucleus which thus slows the mechanical and bilological functions of the observer close to the gravity. Thus the passing of time is a local phenomenon depending on how close you are to a gravitational source. This is one example of a theory involving "time shells" progressing in size and intensity around a gravitational point from all matter. The more massive the object, the larger and more influencial the time shells around it (like an onion). Another offshoot of this theory is that kinetic energ

20 November 2000 17:16 (about time travel) 79
(You sold your 67' when you got here? how do you expect to get back?!)
The unit is portable between vehicles. It is very heavy and requires a "stiff" suspension. The unit is currently in a 4WD.

20 November 2000 17:16 (safety, suggestions, assorted philosophy) 80
What you do on your world line is your own business. I can't think of any better way to start a war than for someone to figure out how to make a time machine. Go for it.

21 November 2000 10:41 (past predictions) 81
For a change, I have a question for all of you. I want you to think…think very hard. What major disaster was expected and prepared for in the last year and a half that never happened?

21 November 2000 10:41 (about the future) 82
On my world line, life is not easy. We live in a world recovering from years of war, poison, destruction and hate. All of it, courtesy of the thinking and actions of people that live right now in the same world you do, worrying about which stocks to buy or whether or not a stranger is lying to them on the internet.

21 November 2000 10:41 () 83
My first experience with war came when I joined a shotgun infantry unit at the age of thirteen. In the 4 years I served as a “rebel”, I watched hundreds of people get shot, burn and bleed to death. I know exactly where I was and every detail of the exact moment the first nuclear warheads began falling on Jacksonville.

21 November 2000 10:41 (predictions for the future) 84
I know exactly where I was and every detail of the exact moment the first nuclear warheads began falling on Jacksonville.

21 November 2000 10:41 (right now) 85
While you sit by and watch your Constitution being torn away from you, you willfully eat poisoned food, buy manufactured products no one needs and turn an uncaring eye away from millions of people suffering and dying all around you.

22 November 2000 20:58 (about time travel) 86
Pamela: 1.What exactly would an observer see as they saw you arriving in this time? and exactly what would they see as you departed? would you just appear suddenly or slowly? would you look like a heat mirage for awhile? any light effects? or hazy misty shimmering distortion?
Time travel_0- The observation of time travelers "appearing" suddenly in a world line do not happen very often. There are two cases and two points of view to consider. In the first case, the time machine does not move as it goes from one world line to another and then returns. The people watching on the original world linewould wave good bye and watch as the machine is turned on. There would be a static discharge and the air would appear to "ripple" as if it were getting denser. Then, it would stop and the machine will have appeared to have gone no where. If the machine doesn't move its position from world line to world line, the observer would not see it disappear at all. In the second case, if the machine is moved, it would disappear from the viewpoint of the observer and return in a different location based on where it was moved and turned on from the destination world line. In that case, the rippling seems to dissolve the machine and it disappears. If that happens while you are watching it leave and you expect it to return, you know it was moved or had a serious malfunction. It is actually quite dangerous to get too close to a distortion unit as it enters or leaves a world line. It vents radiation and has a very strong localized gravity field. Personally, I worry about that a great deal.

Here is the best account I could find on the net

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/...r_project.html

The American Police state could happen. I read an article on the Drudge Report than indicates that that folks are leaving the US to go to Canada because of the Bush re-election. And it appears that the republicans are meeting some success in overturning the election in the state of Washington. I am disturbed by these trends as it may incite some folks to violence instead of the ballot box.
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The fact that slaughter is a horrifying spectacle must make us take war more seriously, but does not provide an excuse for gradually blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later, someone will come along with a sharper sword and hack off our arms
Clausewitz
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