Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released.

[Saber Cherry]

quantum_mechani said:
I don't know about the rest of the ideas, but 0 gold lobo guards sound really scary. I already considered them a bargain...

They would still require 1 resource=) And I think Dom2 has a fundamental limitation of 1 gold per troop minimum. Not to mention that lobo guards are already amphibious and higher HP than a normal human.

Anyway, I'm modelling their effectiveness relative to other light units right now, and I don't plan to undervalue them =)

[Zen]

The easiest way to evaluate the gold cost of troops is to place Gold per pop 200%, then you can identify the discrepencies in gold/resource usefulness.

I don't think it's a fair accessment to base the value of archers on the effectiveness of Staff of Storms, Arrow Fend, etc, because of the overeffectiveness of these spells globally against one entire type of unit (archers).

It's obvious (at least to me) that these spells/magic items have to be toned down to provide a very real advantage but not totally negate the entire unit class.

Even with that argument, I don't think having more precision is a bad thing at all.

[Saber Cherry]

I've been fighting LI, militias, and archers against each other to try to get a feel for their relative power... basically, I tried to adjust the number in a squad (far left) so that the far right numbers ("Overall") would all equal 1000, indicating the squads are all of similar strength at that size. I tried to keep the numbers relative to 20 indy light infantry (the ones with javelins). Also, I didn't put in any shifters since they are not modeled yet, though I did include werewolves. No sacred units are blessed unless it is explicitly mentioned, and routing is not modeled.

Of course, this is all simulated, and there are no projectiles, just melee fighting. And it is just internal rankings... if I threw in heavy infantry, the relative standings would change, since (for example) flails are great against LI and bad against HI. But I thought I'd put up these numbers anyway, in case someone was interested, since they're helping me decide unit monetary values, and if any units simply need stat adjustments because no reasonable price can make them useful.

Edit: table removed, pending verification.

[Arralen]

Archers vs. Slingers

Ancient sources tell us, that archers (with shortbows) and slingers are roughly equal in terms of combat effectivness.

Arrows do more damager per shot, especially against troops with light armor and without shields. Slingers are actually better against troops with shields than archers, as they still cause full shock damage even if the projectile is caught with the shield, because of it's greater mass. Furthermore the volume of fire from slingers is considerably higher due to the easier availability of ammo ... .

The problems with slingers in Dom2 is actually their abysmal accuracy (-3 IIRC), which is IMHO not supported by ancient sources.

Longbowmen are an entirely different matter. In Dom, either their damage is too low or they should have "armor piercing" qualities.

Crossbow should have even more damage, much lesser range but even higher accuracy. Problem maybe: They start to run towards the enemy to get him in range and may end up in front of your inf. no big prob, though, they meet the slingers there

[Arralen]

Barbarians

What about making all Barbs berserkers?
(Thinking about it - AFAICR they where berserkers in DOM1, wheren't they?)

[Saber Cherry]

Arralen said:
Barbarians

What about making all Barbs berserkers?
(Thinking about it - AFAICR they where berserkers in DOM1, wheren't they?)

I'm pretty sure they weren't. Regardless, that's a good idea... I've been thinking about it a bit, and the only troublesome thing is that Barbarian leader descriptions say, "All barbarian leaders can berserk," implying that non-leaders cannot. However, I might just go ahead and modify the description=) If leaders retain their +3 berserk and normal barbarians get +1 berserk, it should all be ok, and Illwinter won't get mad, right?

Arralen said:
Arrows do more damager per shot, especially against troops with light armor and without shields. Slingers are actually better against troops with shields than archers, as they still cause full shock damage even if the projectile is caught with the shield, because of it's greater mass. Furthermore the volume of fire from slingers is considerably higher due to the easier availability of ammo ... .

The problems with slingers in Dom2 is actually their abysmal accuracy (-3 IIRC), which is IMHO not supported by ancient sources.

Longbowmen are an entirely different matter. In Dom, either their damage is too low or they should have "armor piercing" qualities.

More damage for longbows sounds reasonable, since historically they defeated fully-armored knights. How about reducing longbow damage to 4 and making strength additive? Then with longbowman strength 11 they'd end up at 15 damage, able to hurt heavy infantry regularly. I don't want to make them AP simply because that edges in on Crossbow turf.

As for slings, I could modify them to fire twice per round (I think)... were slings CERTAINLY much faster firing than bows? Are you (or anyone else) fairly sure about this?

Boron said:
A few suggestions :
You should make the ryleh freespawns upkeepfree.

Excellent idea, I didn't realize they had upkeep=)

Militia could be need not eat to reflect that they only get surplus food but in times of need they don't get food and can starve. 1 Gold Militia would also make the "good" free militia events less troublesome.

Another good idea, although I'll have to give it some thought. 1 gold AND need-not-eat would be too much, though. The problem is... if militia are need-not-eat, they will NEVER starve and get diseased... and what fun is Dominions 2 without starving, diseased militia? But I want to set militia pricing so that free militia events are, at worst, neutral.

Maenads could also be need not eat because it is ridicoulous after 10 turns with 5 Pans you have like 500 Maenads . Their combat value is still almost zero but with need not eat they would at least be a nice "fodder horde" .

I gave them forest survival, which will hopefully help somewhat... At any rate, I generally find a use for them. Pangaea should have a high growth scale and plentiful nature magic, anyway. I think that "need not eat" is an extremely powerful ability, and while it does solve the problem that Doms 2 has no "food priority system", it would introduce its own problems and mess with realism as well. Maenads may not be good against mechanical men, but they are very good against super-heavy-infantry, for example. 500 maenads against 50 Ulm black plate infantry... in order to kill the maenads, even at an impossible 1-hit-per-kill, the infantry would generate 100 fatigue each and fall asleep.

Do you intend to reduce resource costs also or will they be unchanged ?

I don't plan to change resource costs unless I change a unit's equipment (like Ghoul Guardian) or find an error.

I am anyways looking forward to your mod.

Thanks, me too


P.S. I just combat-simulated harpies (which are similar to but even worse than maenads) versus Ulm heavy infantry, and found a roughly 5-to-1 equivalance:

Code:

---

'50*Pan Harpy' versus '10*Ulm Inf Hammer 1'  in 40000 bouts.



 ~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~



Score: ----------------------  587

Wins: -----------------------   58.73%

Losses: ---------------------   41.28%

Kills per battle: -----------    6.96

Kills per round: ------------     .52

Deaths per battle: ----------   42.16

Life expectancy (rounds): ---   32.11

Life expectancy (battles): --    2.39

Avg. Rounds Elapsed: --------   13.46

Avg. Rounds to Win: ---------   13.61

Avg. Rounds to Lose: --------   13.25

Hit Rate: -------------------   71.29%

Evade Rate: -----------------   56.54%

Damage done per swing: ------     .26

Damage done per hit: --------     .36

Damage taken per hit: -------   17.02

Hit damage taken per life: --   17.46

Total damage taken per life:    18.41

---

The Ulm troops are dying from fatigue. Please note that the difference between the last two numbers is due to repel damage (I think).

[Endoperez]

Maenads surely are easier to have stay in the battle than harpies, but they would still rout sooner or later... BTW, I could run some tests putting Ulm infantry against militia in Dom:PPP Battle Simulator. I don't think we can get closer to unscripted effectivity than that.

[Boron]

Arralen said:
Archers vs. Slingers

Ancient sources tell us, that archers (with shortbows) and slingers are roughly equal in terms of combat effectivness.

Yeah just look at Rome Total war .
Those Balearic Slingers are quite powerful .

A few suggestions :
You should make the ryleh freespawns upkeepfree .
Militia could be need not eat to reflect that they only get surplus food but in times of need they don't get food and can starve .
1 Gold Militia would also make the "good" free militia events less troublesome .
Maenads could also be need not eat because it is ridicoulous after 10 turns with 5 Pans you have like 500 Maenads . Their combat value is still almost zero but with need not eat they would at least be a nice "fodder horde" .

Do you intend to reduce resourcecosts also or will they be unchanged ?
I am anyways looking forward to your mod

[Arralen]

Boron said:

Yeah just look at Rome Total war .

That was what I meant

A few suggestions :
..
Militia could be need not eat to reflect that they only get surplus food but in times of need they don't get food and can starve .

Great. But starving militia would -even in reality- take a morale hit. Oh, wait, they do in Dom, too, if they're starving. So maybe starving milita should be exactly that - starving milita?

Maenads could also be need not eat because it is ridicoulous after 10 turns with 5 Pans you have like 500 Maenads . Their combat value is still almost zero but with need not eat they would at least be a nice "fodder horde" .

1) Their combat value is not zero. Use the Pans to cast Protection/Mass Protection and/or Berserk etc. .

2) If you play Pangaea, you know you will have lots of Maenads if a) you choose high turmoil and b) build lots of Pans. Plan accordingly, use high growth..

[Boron]

Lol seems you don't like Rome Total War Arralen .

With Pangenea : If you take high Turmoil you can't really afford many Pans anyways .
Even with Mass Protection the Maenads have only Protection 10 and are still crappy .
They have only claws + 10 strength so they can't really hurt any of their targets . 10 Mech Men e.g. will beat 500 Maenads .

Since there is no Mechanism in starving included like first the cheapest troops like militia get no supply the need not eat ability for maenads and militia would be great because they would be the first ones who get rationed their food if it is scarce .