Random Picks and Modding...

[Scott Hebert]

Agrajag said:

Just as a simple example, take this none-existing unit:
HP 1
Attack 30
Defence 1
Strength 30
Protection 1
AP 30

All right. Using my current formula:

HP 1 -9 (remember, base of 10)
Att 30 20 (same as above)
Def 1 -9
Str 30 20
Prot 1 1 (assuming base prot)
AP (I don't have much to figure in for this yet... this will probably be taken care of by the 'mounted' tag and a few other things.)

So that comes to 23 points.

and this unit:
HP 16
Attack 16
Defence 16
Strength 16
AP 16

HP 16 6
Att 16 6
Def 16 6
Str 16 6

This comes to 24 points. Yes, that seems to be about the same. I think the fault lies in the negatives (that is, values below 10), as they have a greater impact than positives. Still, I could try to come up with a progressive system that takes this into account. Unfortunately, I think it would have a lot more 'end math' needed to get it to the point where it could be applied to something like gold cost.

According to the additive system, both are exactly the same, while it is obvious that the second is a much better unit.
as another example you can take the first unit and up its HP, Defence and Protection to 30, according to the additive system that unit is now almost twice as strong as before,

Well, you didn't list the protection of the second unit at all. If you're referring to base protection, increase the second unit's cost by 16 (making it 40 to 23). Now, if you have a hypothetical unit of 'all 30s', you'd have:

HP 30 20
Att 30 20
Def 30 20
Prot 30 30

I get 90 for this. As compared to 40. A little higher than twice. Now, if you assume a base of 0 prot (i.e., their protection comes from armor), you have 60 to 24. That is a 2.5x difference.

Is it foolproof? Probably not. However, I think my method will be a good 'rule of thumb'. At the present, I also only plan to use this with commanders, not troops. That makes an additive system IMO a slightly better idea. (Commanders get slots to use magic items. This tends to 'even out' things, especially for combat builds.)

[Scott Hebert]

Endoperez said:
Would these values be counted before or after adjusting the equipment? As an example, Ulmish Lord Guardian will get prot 20 but -8 or so def with his equipment.

AFAIK, equipment only has a resource cost, not a gold cost, and so equipment is ignored when calculating this (all base stats).

Since commanders can have magic items anyway, this is probably the 'best' way of going about it.

[Scott Hebert]

Oversway said:
One commander factor that I don't see mentioned (but may have missed) is slots. Maybe it doesn't matter so much since most commanders have either humanoid or horseman slots.

I do plan to see whether or not slots make a difference. Again, the horseman 'bootless' issue will be wrapped up in the mounted tag.

Does the mounted tag seem to be factored into the cost in the regular game? Perhaps it is that mounted commanders also have other good stats, but they always seem rather expensive.

As mounted seems to increase AP in combat (and its encumbrance avoidance), I do intend to evaluate commanders on their 'mountedness'.

[Scott Hebert]

Well, I have looked into Abysia. Perhaps it was not the best one to start with, but it may help matters. I'm still trying to 'tweak' the leadership numbers, but here's how it currently stands:

0 - 0
10 - 5
25 - 10
50 - 15
etc.

That's for normal leadership. Undead leadership costs twice base, magical leadership triple base.

Anyway, here are the 'breakdowns' for each Abysia (base theme) commander, for stats, leadership, and magic.

Slayer:
Commander: 10
Stats: 19
Leadership: 0
Magic: 0
Total: 29

Warlord:
Commander: 10
Stats: 18
Leadership: 15
Magic: 0
Total: 43

Beast Tamer:
Commander: 10
Stats: 16
Leadership: 20
Magic: 0
Total: 46

Anathemant Salamander:
Commander: 10
Stats: 8
Leadership: 10
Magic: 140
Total: 168

Anathemant Dragon:
Commander: 10
Stats: 11
Leadership: 10
Magic: 300
Total: 331

Warlock Apprentice:
Commander: 10
Stats: 4
Leadership: 5
Magic: 110
Total: 129

Warlock:
Commander: 10
Stats: 6
Leadership: 5
Magic: 257.5
Total: 278.5

Demonbred:
Commander: 10
Stats: 24
Leadership: 35
Magic: 200
Total: 269

Now, we have some assorted 'bennies' to hand out to the Abysians. They ALL have Heat (and thus Fire Immunity) and Wasteland Survival. In fact, that is all that the Warlord/Anathemants/Warlocks have left. Looking at the Anathemants, a cost of 30 seems to be 'about right' for Heat and Wasteland Survival.

Survival seems a weak ability, so 5 points sounds about right. That leaves 25 points for Heat. Exactly how that splits up (Heat by itself vs. the Fire Immunity... probably thinking 20 for Immunity), I'm not concerned yet. In any event, that seems to work there, so adding...

Slayer:
Subtotal: 19
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 49

Warlord:
Subtotal: 43
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 73

Beast Tamer:
Subtotal: 46
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 76

Anathemant Salamander:
Subtotal: 168
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 198

Anathemant Dragon:
Subtotal: 331
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 361

Warlock Apprentice:
Subtotal: 129
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 159

Warlock:
Subtotal: 278.5
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 308.5

Demonbred:
Subtotal: 269
Heat: 25
Survival: 5
Total: 299

Okay. The Warlord comes out more expensive than in the actual game, but the Beast Trainer and the Anathemants are more or less right on, as far as costs go. (Commander costs always seem to be rounded to the nearest multiple of 5.) The Warlock Apprentice and the Warlock are also a little overcosted, but they are capital-only, and so that may or may not be important. (I may have gotten the Warlock's magic calculation wrong as well, so I'm going to recheck that.)

The Beast Trainer supposedly has Animal Awe, but I doubt that really makes much of an impact, and so it's 0. Judging from the Slayer, Assassin (and Stealthy +5 to go with it) seems worth 30 points, so that's what I'm using there. As for the Demonbred, he's the real oddball. He's already over his 'normal' cost, and I haven't adjusted for Flying yet.

Anyway, I might take a look at Blood of Humans, and maybe Pythium, and get back to you guys some refinements.

[The_Tauren13]

I would give the captiol only guys -10% or so simply because they are cap only. Makes sense that capitol only mages should be cheaper, as they are 'exclusive'.

[Saber Cherry]

You need to factor in "Sacred." It reduces upkeep by 50%, so I would make it multiplicative (x1.5 to x1.75). I would certainly pay 1.5x to get "sacred" on a mage that will be around for a while, and that doesn't even include bless effects (air shield, lightning resistance, quickness, reinvigoration, twist fate... wow!)

[Turin]

Why is magical leadership so costly? There aren´t that many magic troops around which require huge amounts of magic leadership.
In fact the only one I see massed are mechanical men.

Undead and even regular leadership are far more important most of the time.

[Scott Hebert]

The_Tauren13 said:
I would give the captiol only guys -10% or so simply because they are cap only. Makes sense that capitol only mages should be cheaper, as they are 'exclusive'.

Normally, I factor in a 20% reduction, but I'm not going to mess with that until later.

[Saber Cherry]

Turin said:
Why is magical leadership so costly? There aren´t that many magic troops around which require huge amounts of magic leadership.

That's why it is costly. With undead leadership, you NEED huge amounts for it to be useful, so it is cheap. With magic leadership, even 5 points can be highly effective, so it is valuable. Generally, magic leadership is already paid for by path cost, but sometimes it is separate (magic leaders, Illithids, Salamander trainers, etc).

[Scott Hebert]

Saber Cherry said:
You need to factor in "Sacred." It reduces upkeep by 50%, so I would make it multiplicative (x1.5 to x1.75). I would certainly pay 1.5x to get "sacred" on a mage that will be around for a while, and that doesn't even include bless effects (air shield, lightning resistance, quickness, reinvigoration, twist fate... wow!)

As I found out in an earlier analysis, sacred commanders have no cost increase over other commanders. At least, those that are priests have absolutely no cost increase over other commanders. The rare few that are not priests probably do have a cost increase.

It's rather counter-intuitive, but every single priest's cost would skyrocket if you added an extra 50% to his cost.

Really. Just tote up the magic costs on any mage out there, add 30, and you'll see that there's no extra charge for sacred commanders. I believe the Shaman is the sole exception.

As a counter-example, I offer the Daughter of Avalon.