Random Picks and Modding...

[BigDaddy]

Warlords are more expensive because they are ambidextrous.

[Scott Hebert]

BigDaddy said:
Warlords are more expensive because they are ambidextrous.

Actually, that would push their cost in the wrong direction. Any unit or commander that has 2 or more weapons gets ambidextrous. I cannot see a way to quantify it. Well, I can, but it 'messes up' the math.

Basically, I already have the Warlord costing 15g more than he does. If I add in his ambidextrous ability (at 1.5-2 per point), he'd be about 80g instead of 60g.

The same point could be made about the Slayer.

[The_Tauren13]

Where are you seeing 50 gold for holy 3? For C'tis its 120, for Caelum its 90 ( yes he has flight and is stealthy, but all Caelum commanders are cheaper then they are worth, including the seraphine ), for Machaka 90, and for Jotunheim its 200!

Seems more like its 50 for holy 2, but like 90 for holy 3,

[Scott Hebert]

From Illwinter's site, Holy-2 is worth 20, Holy-3 is worth 50, and Holy-4 is worth 150. This is what I use.

As for the different costs of different commanders that have Holy-2/3/what-have-you, one of the primary reasons I am going through this analysis is to find out why they are costed differently.

[Scott Hebert]

All right, overnight I have been working through quite a few more of the Commanders. I am done through Ulm (all versions). First, I will list what specials I've encountered, and the costs that seem to approach what fits the observed data.

Heat (including 100% Fire Resistance): 25
Elemental Resistance: 1/10% (100% would be 10)
Survival (any): 5
Amphibious: 10
Sacred (without priest): 20 (guesstimate)
Communion Slave: 20
Mounted: 40 (yeah, go fig)
Cold Blooded: -5
Stealth(0)/Scout: 10
Spy: 20 (incl. Stealth(25-30))
Assassin: 30 (incl. Stealth(5))
Glamour: 15 (probably undercosted)
Recuperation: 5
Forge(25): 10
Drain Immunity: 10
Siege(x): 2x
Defense(x): 2x
Standard(x): .5x
Inquisitor: 10
Summon Wolves: 10
Fortune: 20

All right. I'm going to list commanders by nation/theme, and their 'calculated values', and 'actual values'. Comments will be held until after each nation/theme.

Blood of Humans:

Abysian Commander,43,35
Newt,88,80
Sanguine Acolyte, 88, 100
*Sanguine Anathemant,218,220

Re: Newt vs. Sanguine Acolyte, they seem like they're about 90g. I think Illwinter decided to give an equal disparity (one goes to 80, the other to 100) to sort of differentiate them.

Atlantis:

Atlantian Scout,32,20
Shambler Chief,51,50
Consort,92,80
Coral Queen,241,230
King of the Deep,287.5,290
*Initiate of the Deep,49,60
*Deep Seer,233,180

The Deep Seer is clearly anomalous. This I do not find to be indicative of an issue with my methods, as the Deep Seer, going from a simplistic 30g+210g (magic) would cost 240g.

Pythium(base):

Scout,20,20
Assassin,54,60
Centurion,26,30
Emerald Lord,50,80
Serpent Lord,74,130
Theurg Communicant,47,50
Battle Deacon,47,90
Theurg Acolyte,63,90
Theurg,190,150
Arch Theurg,416.25,380
Hydra Tamer,42,55

The Emerald Lord, Serpent Lord, and Battle Deacon seem to be badly overcosted (which comes as no surprise), while the Theurg and Arch-Theurg are undercosted (again, no real surprise). Something I am noticing is that my method consistently undercosts 1-path mages. Mainly it's because I am trying to 'work out' the 'base 30 cost' that Illwinter lists for commanders.

Pythium Serpent Cult:

Serpent Acolyte,66,80
Serpent Priest,209,190

Man:

Forester,27,25
Castellan,31,30
Monk,44,30
Bard,78,75
Lord Warden,85,130
*Daughter of Avalon,128,80
*Mother of Avalon,163,130
*Crone of Avalon,292.5,230

As expected, the Females of Avalon are highly discounted. The Lord Warden is about as bad the other way. As a note, Sacred on commanders really cannot be valued at more than 20 points, because at that point the commander may as well have Holy-2, which gives Sacred for free.

Man Last of the Tuatha:

Sidhe Champion,140,140
Sidhe Lord,277,280
Tuatha,430.5,390

Glamour being 15 points came from these guys, as it made the Sidhe Champion and Sidhe Lord come out right. Somehow, I thought it would be worth more...

Ulm:

Spy,30,30
Commander of Ulm(any),32,30
Black Lord,79,130
Master Smith,156,140
Siege Engineer,55,50
Priest,29,50 (note: this is the base priest)
*Lord Guardian,47,80

Iron Faith Ulm:

Black Acolyte,28,40
Black Priest,138,140

Black Forest Ulm:

Commander of Ulm,21,40
Ranger Captain,33,45
Illuminated One,61,80
Member of the Second Tier,143,160
Wolfherd,46,50
Fortunteller,89,90

That's through Ulm. I'm going out of town this weekend, so I may not be able to update, but I hope to get the rest of the national comanders done by late next week.

If anyone has any questions or comments about the calculated values, ask and I'll go through it for any issues.

[BigDaddy]

There may be some kind of capital only bonus. It seems like the best non-magic guys get a penalty. Emerald Lords, Black Lords, Lord Guardians. I'm not sure why this is, because I would personally like to see more thugs, always more thugs. And then obviously races be various specific bonuses as well (like the daughters of avalon).

[Scott Hebert]

I would agree on the non-magic part. Not so sure with the rest. Even with a 20% reduction in price for capital-only (which is more than most are willing to give, I believe), the Daughter of Avalon is 20g over her actual price.

[johan osterman]

Scott Hebert said:
From Illwinter's site, Holy-2 is worth 20, Holy-3 is worth 50, and Holy-4 is worth 150. This is what I use.
...

These are intended to be read as on top of the commander cost. Landing type 2 priests in the 40-50 range, and type 3 priests 80-90 etc.

[Scott Hebert]

I understand, Johan. What I am doing is the following:

Example: base priest

Infantry: 10 (This is the cost to be an infantry commander. It presumes you are straight 10s in combat stats, Encumbrance of 3, base protection of 0, with no Leadership, Magic, or Specials.)

HP(9): -1 (HP, like most stats, are assumed to be a base of 10. If you deviate from that, you cost more/less depending on it.)

Prot(0): 0
Mrl(10): 0
MR(13): 3
Enc(4): -1
Str(9): -1
Att(7): -3
Def(7): -3
Prc(10): 0

Totaling the stat points, I get -6.

Leadership(10): 5

As stated above, a Normal Leadership of 10 is worth 5 points.

Magic(HH): 20

This is right off of Illwinter's site. The Priest has no 'Specials', so totaling:

Infantry: 10
Stats: -6
Leadership: 5
Magic: 20
Total: 29

Does this match Illwinter's projected cost for a Priest? No, it doesn't. OTOH, it may be more fair. As it stands, a Priest is good for a few things:

1. Building temples, preaching, and banishing undead. This is presumed to be part of the 20-pt. cost for a Holy-2 person.

2. Moving troops around. Unfortunately, a commander that won't die to the first attack from a militia and that can move more troops, costs the same (by this formula).

Basically, I feel that in cases such as this, charging 30g for a body that simply cannot fight (or even stand up in a fight) is too much. 10 is much more reasonable.

One of the main purposes of this exercise is to find where the balance points are in commander creation. Armed with the results of this exercise, I plan to do a 'rebalance' mod similar to Saber Cherry's, except apply it to the commanders, across the board.

[Oversway]

What is encouraging so far is that the results of your cost formula tends to echo what other players mention as under- and over-priced units. Very cool.