Random Picks and Modding...

[Scott Hebert]

I understand, Johan. What I am doing is the following:

Example: base priest

Infantry: 10 (This is the cost to be an infantry commander. It presumes you are straight 10s in combat stats, Encumbrance of 3, base protection of 0, with no Leadership, Magic, or Specials.)

HP(9): -1 (HP, like most stats, are assumed to be a base of 10. If you deviate from that, you cost more/less depending on it.)

Prot(0): 0
Mrl(10): 0
MR(13): 3
Enc(4): -1
Str(9): -1
Att(7): -3
Def(7): -3
Prc(10): 0

Totaling the stat points, I get -6.

Leadership(10): 5

As stated above, a Normal Leadership of 10 is worth 5 points.

Magic(HH): 20

This is right off of Illwinter's site. The Priest has no 'Specials', so totaling:

Infantry: 10
Stats: -6
Leadership: 5
Magic: 20
Total: 29

Does this match Illwinter's projected cost for a Priest? No, it doesn't. OTOH, it may be more fair. As it stands, a Priest is good for a few things:

1. Building temples, preaching, and banishing undead. This is presumed to be part of the 20-pt. cost for a Holy-2 person.

2. Moving troops around. Unfortunately, a commander that won't die to the first attack from a militia and that can move more troops, costs the same (by this formula).

Basically, I feel that in cases such as this, charging 30g for a body that simply cannot fight (or even stand up in a fight) is too much. 10 is much more reasonable.

One of the main purposes of this exercise is to find where the balance points are in commander creation. Armed with the results of this exercise, I plan to do a 'rebalance' mod similar to Saber Cherry's, except apply it to the commanders, across the board.

[Oversway]

What is encouraging so far is that the results of your cost formula tends to echo what other players mention as under- and over-priced units. Very cool.

[Scott Hebert]

I had noticed that myself. Well, I want to play with BF Ulm a little more, and then I'll work on some of the other nations.

[Huzurdaddi]

Scott,

the price for the preist you calculated may be very close to the actual cost of the preist since you did not include the cost multipler for sacred. I don't know what that multipler is ( somewhere between x1.5 and x2.0 ). But if it was half way between those two points x1.75 you get a cost of 50.75 which is perfect!

[Scott Hebert]

Huzurdaddi,

Yes, that would fix it... but would break all the other priests.

An Anathemant Salamander would be 300g with that multiplier. An Anathemant Dragon 540g. Etc. etc.

If someone can show me where a priest is not sacred, I might try to work it into the costs somewhere. Until then, I'm going to keep working on this, and then try to analyze everything 'at the end'.

I'm much more inclined to think that a priest is balanced at 30 than to try to apply arcane formulae so that his cost comes out to 50.

[Verjigorm]

Wuldn't holiness be taken into account by the H2 cost similar to the bonus abilities given to other magical disciplines? Illwinter's site says (in general) it is a 50% increase. Look at Pythium's Theurg however:

The Theurg costs 150gp/1rp and has magic paths of A, W, S2, H3. Ordering the paths from highest to lowest we get:
Basic Commander Price: 30gp
S2: 1st Path, level 2 = +90gp
W: 2nd Path, level 1 = +20gp
A: 3rd Path, level 1 = +10gp
-----
150gp
But wait a minute!
H3: Holy Priest = +50gp

So the Arch Theurg (according to Illwinter's scheme) gets H3 for free--not including the 50% sacred cost increase.

[Saber Cherry]

Living Ermor has non-sacred priests.

[Verjigorm]

I see... If you see where I am going with the example above, there are many instances in the game where units are given substantial cost bonuses, regardless. Most Holy units are sacred, but few take into account the cost increase for sacredness, and some do not even take into account the actual cost of Holy magic--cite also the Monk, cost 30gp, H2; that is unless, the Monk's "body" as Scott mentions is worth only 10gp and then, his sacredness is still free OR included with the cost of H2.... That still leaves the conundrum of units like the Theurg.

[Scott Hebert]

Saber Cherry said:
Living Ermor has non-sacred priests.

Actually, Saber, it's not marked. I deliberately went in and modded BE Ermor's Thaumaturgs Holy... and it doesn't show up. I thought I had checked Upkeep changes, and saw that yes, indeed, they are Holy, but I may have mistaken that.

I do know one of two things, though:

1) Unholy priests cannot be Sacred.
2) Unholy priests may be Sacred, but it is never marked.

Can anyone think of a reason why Commanders can't be Unholy?

[Scott Hebert]

Verjigorm said:
Wuldn't holiness be taken into account by the H2 cost similar to the bonus abilities given to other magical disciplines?

That is my contention.

Illwinter's site says (in general) it is a 50% increase. Look at Pythium's Theurg however:

Actually, Illwinter's site says that it is a 50% increase for units. It does not state, one way or the other, what it is for commanders.

The Theurg costs 150gp/1rp and has magic paths of A, W, S2, H3. Ordering the paths from highest to lowest we get:
Basic Commander Price: 30gp
S2: 1st Path, level 2 = +90gp
W: 2nd Path, level 1 = +20gp
A: 3rd Path, level 1 = +10gp
-----
150gp
But wait a minute!
H3: Holy Priest = +50gp

Yes, this is perfectly accurate. The Theurg should cost, without any extra cost for being Sacred, 200g, by Illwinter's standards. Such things as this prompted my analysis. Using my methods, the Theurg comes out to about 180g (basically, his 'frame' is worth quite a bit less than 30g).

So the Arch Theurg (according to Illwinter's scheme) gets H3 for free--not including the 50% sacred cost increase.

Arch Theurg, or Theurg? If you're referring to Theurg... yeah, he's HHH and Sacred for free.