Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Boron]

Endoperez said:
The precision Aim gives cannot be changed. Are you sure you haven't confused the precision the spell is casted with (100 with Mind Burn, 1 with Falling Fires, -3 with Cloud of Death) with the precision bonus the spell gives?

Oh i thought precisision 100 means that Aim gives now + 100 Precision . But you are probably right . Thanks for the clarification Endoperez .

[ioticus]

Zen, why did you increase the power of the Vine Ogre? I think if any summon deserves a nerf, that is it (besides the Devil and Fiend of Darkness.)

[The_Tauren13]

ioticus said:
Zen, why did you increase the power of the Vine Ogre? I think if any summon deserves a nerf, that is it (besides the Devil and Fiend of Darkness.)

I second that.
I would have given the vine ogre -5 attack instead of +5 Def and +5 Prot...

[Saber Cherry]

I kind of wondered too. I don't see any reason to nerf their strength, but boosting the cost to 2 gems seems fair.

[Huzurdaddi]

I think he boosted their prot since big vines are basically like bark and bark has prot of 10. As for the increased defence, I don't know. Not like it makes a heck of a lot of difference.

Finally, I totally agree that a cost of 2 gems would help balance them out.

*or*

We could simply mod casters to be more expensive ( as Saber Cherry was talking about ), perhaps x2 or x3 as expensive. That way mage turns would be far more precious and the cost would be balanced at 1 gem.

[Graeme Dice]

ioticus said:
Zen, why did you increase the power of the Vine Ogre? I think if any summon deserves a nerf, that is it (besides the Devil and Fiend of Darkness.)

I still don't see why people are so concerned about vine ogres? They are slow to summon, take huge amounts of the most valuable gem type, and are slow strategically. Unlike skeletons, which have a similar power level on the battlefield, they aren't lifeless, so you can't even swamp a SC with them.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:

I still don't see why people are so concerned about vine ogres? They are slow to summon, take huge amounts of the most valuable gem type, and are slow strategically. Unlike skeletons, which have a similar power level on the battlefield, they aren't lifeless, so you can't even swamp a SC with them.

Most valuable gem type? I consider Death, Earth (esp. for hammers or alchemy), Fire (for alchemy), Astral (very useful and transmutable), Water (clams), and Slaves (summons, contracts, earth-blood stones) more useful. I mainly use Nature for winebags, summer swords, totem shields, vine ogres, lamia queens, the occasional swarm, and some Fairy Queens if the game gets that far. Of those, I'd rate winebags, ogres (rarely vinemen), and lamia queens the best. Am I missing something?

In any case, I'd almost always want 10 vine ogres (good strength, HP, attack, need-not-eat, 2 attacks, poison-immune, no upkeep, no magical leadership, no morale failure) rather than 5 nature gems.

You don't have to use them for swamping SCs, because you can use them to swamp many other things, considering they only need research-3 (and cons-4, for thistle mace). They are great as garrisons or bodyguards, needing no food, upkeep, or special leadership. They have better strategic mobility than undead (IMO), with 2 moves and forest survival. They cannot effectively be trampled. Best of all, cheap, common Druids can summon them (with thistle maces and ivy crowns, both of which Druids can make). Overall... they rock! And they're the only good low-level summon outside of Death and Blood.

[Graeme Dice]

Saber Cherry said:
Most valuable gem type? I consider Death, Earth (esp. for hammers or alchemy), Fire (for alchemy), Astral (very useful and transmutable), Water (clams), and Slaves (summons, contracts, earth-blood stones) more useful.

Basically it comes down to rings of regeneration, gift of health, and haunted forest. Gift of health and haunted forest can both be game-winners.

In any case, I'd almost always want 10 vine ogres (good strength, HP, attack, need-not-eat, 2 attacks, poison-immune, no upkeep, no magical leadership, no morale failure) rather than 5 nature gems.

Wouldn't you rather have 5-12 Lamia's for that cost?

You don't have to use them for swamping SCs, because you can use them to swamp many other things, considering they only need research-3 (and cons-4, for thistle mace).

Once you've built up enough of a force to take on your opponents, it will likely be past turn 20-30 and into the mid-game where you can expect to see battlefield spells, elemental royalty, and blood commanders.

And they're the only good low-level summon outside of Death and Blood.

True, but that hardly makes them overpowered.

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:
Basically it comes down to rings of regeneration, gift of health, and haunted forest. Gift of health and haunted forest can both be game-winners.

Why are these so much better than tartarians, wish, and clams?

Graeme Dice said:
Wouldn't you rather have 5-12 Lamia's for that cost?

I would absolutely rather 10 vine ogres than 3 lamias, and it would take a level 12 mage to get 12 for that cost.

Graeme Dice said:
Once you've built up enough of a force to take on your opponents, it will likely be past turn 20-30 and into the mid-game where you can expect to see battlefield spells, elemental royalty, and blood commanders.

...and they make great tanks for your own mages. 106 HP for 1 gem is hard to beat. And by turn 20-30, you will have ivy kings making 4 for 1 gem (212 HP), which is impossible to match with any other summon.

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
Why are these so much better than tartarians, wish, and clams?

Tartarians are useless without gift of health or the chalice to support their creation, and oddly enough, both of those cost nature gems. Wish is a fun toy, but it is rare to find a wish that is more effective than wishing for gems or blood slaves. Clams are powerful, yes, but overrated in aggressive games.

I would absolutely rather 10 vine ogres than 3 lamias, and it would take a level 12 mage to get 12 for that cost.

Then you are, quite frankly, ignorant of just how much better Lamia's are than vine ogres.

...and they make great tanks for your own mages. 106 HP for 1 gem is hard to beat.

Your mages are going to be killed by the same battlefield spells that are killing the vine ogres. Also, who really cares that they have 56 hitpoints? That's something like three-six hits by standard national troops.

And by turn 20-30, you will have ivy kings making 4 for 1 gem (212 HP), which is impossible to match with any other summon.

If you are summoning ivy kings, then it takes 15 turns for their gem cost to pay off compared to using two N2 mages both with ivy crowns. If you are willing to spend that long, that late in the game, then I'll be quite happy to use my own nature gems to put up the various nature globals. I take it that you've never seen the haunted forest chain reaction in action?