Recruitable Mage Rebalance - seeking comments

[TheSelfishGene]

Actually its an admirable task your about to attempt; but one that i think is wrongheaded.

The problem with magic in Dominions 2 is not that its more powerful than conventional units; after all its supposed to be. The problem is that out of 500 spells, trying to make 475 of them work for you will cost you the game, while 25 of them are so powerful they can win almost irregardless of what your opponent does.

There was a contest in a previous post about an SC competition, but the winning SC apparently won because they used a Mind Control type spell since the SCs weren't marked as Pretenders. One player commented that "you just found a loophole and won the game with it", and that pretty much describes multiplayer Dom2 Find the most absurdly broken spell/summons and run with it, while everyone else is tooling around wondering if flails are better than axes. Not that you can blame them, its a complicated game and it takes time to find these broken abilities, but broken they are.

Now if you want to emphasise conventional troops you need to balance down; if you like magic, than balance up.

In other words, IMO as far as cost and everything, mages are fine. What is not fine are the summons and spells some of them can cast.

[Scott Hebert]

I disagree with your assumption that Dominions 2 is about magic and mages. In the game, Magic is a tool, just like any other. It should be balanced against all the other tools you have available.

Just because current game-balance requires a switch-over from recruited troops to summoned troops does not mean that it is always a requirement.

After my national commander analysis, I plan to try my hand at a summoned commander analysis, to see if they can be similarly re-balanced.

[Tuidjy]

TheSelfishGene said:
The problem is that out of 500 spells, trying to make 475 of them work for you will cost you the game, while 25 of them are so powerful they can win almost irregardless of what your opponent does.

Regardless of what you mean by 'irregardless', when you have 25 spells that
can each win the game, you have balance. Even someone who is hoarding,
madcastling, wrathing, ghostriding, teleporting around, mass enslaving, etc...
will have a hard time against someone doing the same.

There was a contest in a previous post about an SC competition, but the winning SC apparently won because they used a Mind Control type spell since the SCs weren't marked as Pretenders. One player commented that "you just found a loophole and won the game with it", and that pretty much describes multiplayer Dom2

If all the SC had been pretenders, 'Soul Slay' would have achieved the exact same
effect, except Yvelina would not have had half a dozen bodyguards in the seventh
battle. If my contestant had not taken the gargoyle out with 'Petrify', Yvelina
would have had lost her first fight. In a multiplayer game, one has no excuse
for failing for a trick twice.

Find the most absurdly broken spell/summons and run with it, while everyone else is tooling around wondering if flails are better than axes. Not that you can blame them, its a complicated game and it takes time to find these broken abilities, but broken they are.

Right, and ancient warfare was obviously broken because anyone who was tooling
around wondering whether obsydian is better than flint would have had a hard
time fighting off a roman legion.

You know, I suggest one simple test. I challenge you to a simple contest.
You will claim one strategy and I will not use it in the first game. In the
second game, you will choose an additional one. The point will be to see how
long it would take you to win.

[TheSelfishGene]

So Wrathful skies is fair? I've beaten Wrathful Sky casters in a multiplayer game (an Air Queen), but it cost me my whole army of devils (which are hardly weak units themselves). Utterdark is fair? Its the big red WIN GAME button. False Horror is fair? Wow, its -10 fatigue and 1 path; dragonflies take -100 fatigue and 1 nature gem. Vine Ogres are fair? I mean they cost the same as Vine Men, how could you even defend them? (aside from being almost the only Nature thing worth a flip in Multi).

There are previous discussions about buffing 'low level' summons, and how the better players wouldn't even touch them , hording them gems for Summons X. So their conclusion was to buff the low level summons. 5 gems for a Scorpion is fine; 10 gems for a Undead, 20 armor, 42hp, Bane Blade thug is NOT fine. Its not that the previous summons is bad, its that things like the Banelord are simply too good.

Please take into context this thread's purpose: to rebalance mages. What i was saying was that 1) most mages prices are acceptable when you calculate magic paths/cost, and 2) those that seem cheap for their value are so because they are able to cast an overpowered spell/summons. And thus, leading me to conclude that it would be better to adjust the spell/summon than the caster.

You can change balance more towards summons or more towards conventional troops - common knowledge is that, basically, all conventional troops are crap, its only a matter of time when. Because everyone wants to spam temples and castles, that 'when' is pretty damn soon after the start of the game. Since Saber Cherry made a mod just before this one trying to make conventional troops more effective, and this mod is increasing caster cost, i figured a better solution is to tone down the overpowered magics and summons.

I've no love for multi Dom2 anymore, although i had fun while it lasted, so i'm not inclided to accept your contest. Although, i'm not exactly certain what it would prove in any event. I ban WISH, you spam GHOST RIDERS, or whatever. Boy, was i wrong!... or something.

[Graeme Dice]

TheSelfishGene said:
So Wrathful skies is fair?

It's definetly powerful. It can also be defended against if you plan for it.

I've beaten Wrathful Sky casters in a multiplayer game (an Air Queen), but it cost me my whole army of devils (which are hardly weak units themselves).

Did you not have any rings of tamed lightning?

Utterdark is fair? Its the big red WIN GAME button.

If someone casts Utterdark, they had better have put a huge number of death gems into it, or else it's going to only last a turn. That huge number of death gems could have been used in any number of other ways.

False Horror is fair? Wow, its -10 fatigue and 1 path;

It also is only useful as a delaying tactic to keep the air mages from being overrun by high MR, lightning immune commanders.

dragonflies take -100 fatigue and 1 nature gem.

Dragonflies are nature magic, which has useful summons, unlike air magic.

Vine Ogres are fair?

They are more than fair. They are cannon fodder that can't stand up to anything approaching serious opposition.

I mean they cost the same as Vine Men, how could you even defend them?

They require a nature 3 mage to spend an entire turn. That's not quite the same cost as vine men.

(aside from being almost the only Nature thing worth a flip in Multi).

Lamia's are certainly a better use of your gems than vine ogres. They actually have a chance to defeat fully equipped SCs, unlike vine ogres, which perform worse than barbarians.

5 gems for a Scorpion is fine; 10 gems for a Undead, 20 armor, 42hp, Bane Blade thug is NOT fine.

That it has a bane blade is immaterial because a bane blade is not really a useful weapon. A unit with 42 hp and 20 armour will only survive a single turn against 20 or so units with the ability to achieve more than 20 damage. (Barbarians and all other two-handed weapon wielders.)

Its not that the previous summons is bad, its that things like the Banelord are simply too good.

A banelord is nothing special unless you spend three times his summoning cost on equipment. At that point, he can still be killed by elite national troops if you set him up to defend against elemental magic and cover his lousy MR, or by magic if you set him up to not be defeated (easily) by elite units.

Please take into context this thread's purpose: to rebalance mages.

Mages are already almost too expensive in most cases, so they really don't need to be made even more so.

You can change balance more towards summons or more towards conventional troops - common knowledge is that, basically, all conventional troops are crap, its only a matter of time when.

It's unfortunate that "common knowledge" doesn't match up with "actual gameplay".

Because everyone wants to spam temples and castles, that 'when' is pretty damn soon after the start of the game.

If you define turn 40-60 as "pretty soon", then yes, it is pretty soon.

I ban WISH, you spam GHOST RIDERS, or whatever.

If you can't defend against ghost rider attacks, then you've probably spent most of the game turtling and avoiding confrontation, and have already lost the expansion race before turn 20. All the high-level spells do is bring the game to a conclusion before turn 150.

[tinkthank]

Cherry, I think your idea is noble, but am not sure it would be "worth it" in terms of the hours and hours you will need for testing, because "very difficult research" and a few spell mods will accomplish a similar effect. Balance mods such as this are extremely complex (doh!), since you will have to contextualize the increase of price for individual nations in comparison with the strengths and roles the mages play between the nations.

That being said: looks nice!
I would prefer fewer changes to a few mages. I particularly welcome a small price increase in the Caelan mage.
I think a thematically sensible change (which I have tested and liked) is to make the New Era Pan 2E2N1? (that is, in the New Age, the Pan's Nature skills have decreased due to their increased love of steel), but they keep a random.

Good luck!

[Scott Hebert]

Endoperez found my original work on over/undercosted mages,Cherry. I'll forward you the relevant information.

Regarding 'overcosted mages', I think the problem is more that the 'good mages' (those that people think are costed appropriately) are in fact under-costed by quite a degree, and the rest are more or less evenly priced.

If mages were not summonable, I think that would help.

We'll see.

[The_Tauren13]

Scott Hebert said:
If mages were not summonable, I think that would help.

Wouldnt that annihilate some themes like Ulm and Carrion Woods beyond all repair?