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  #1  
Old March 20th, 2005, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is

Quote:

Celestial Master (Standard and BK) gets +1 air, -1 water, +1 elemental, +15g. Result: F 2A W S ? #, 265g (sacred)
Celestial Master (SA) gets +1 sorcery, +15g. Result: F 2A W S 2$ # (linked), 265g (sacred)
1) you forgot holy-3 ...
2) having water-2 on them acutally makes sense (Acid-Spells, which are rarely used otherwise), while having another nation with lightning-tossing mages is rather boring.
3) S&A CM is FAWS 3R .. that's not what I read from above...

---

And if you take away water from the CM, or if you really want to beef up S&A magic, replace Master of The Way's water with astral, so he can form communion with the CM, and summon water daemons.

---

And "Spirit Mastery" is starting spell of S&A. There's little that S&A has in the first turns, and now with 8 instead of 4 gems it won't even have Disposessed (sp?) Spirits ..
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Old March 20th, 2005, 07:01 AM
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Default Bugs to be fixed...

Quote:
Arralen said:
Quote:

Celestial Master (Standard and BK) gets +1 air, -1 water, +1 elemental, +15g. Result: F 2A W S ? #, 265g (sacred)
Celestial Master (SA) gets +1 sorcery, +15g. Result: F 2A W S 2$ # (linked), 265g (sacred)
1) you forgot holy-3 ...
2) having water-2 on them acutally makes sense (Acid-Spells, which are rarely used otherwise), while having another nation with lightning-tossing mages is rather boring.
3) S&A CM is FAWS 3R .. that's not what I read from above...

---

And if you take away water from the CM, or if you really want to beef up S&A magic, replace Master of The Way's water with astral, so he can form communion with the CM, and summon water daemons.

---

And "Spirit Mastery" is starting spell of S&A. There's little that S&A has in the first turns, and now with 8 instead of 4 gems it won't even have Disposessed (sp?) Spirits ..

...ahhh... I hope I didn't similarly break any other nations... I can sort of feel my reputation falling into a black hole... makes me want to play Space Empires IV... but I'll live

I realize water-2 plus fire is more interesting that air-2, but I was trying to make their national spells accessable. Having never played SA, I didn't realize the national sites gave water gems...

So that's fixed in version 7.1 (available at the first post). Thanks for noting the problems! As for giving MotFE astral, that seems sort of wierd (violating their name). You can do communions with only Celestial Masters, anyway, which (with this mod) cost about the same.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Bugs to be fixed...

Don't confuse "Master of The Way" (100gp/WR2H) with "Master of Five Elements"(whatever) ...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: Bugs to be fixed...

Quote:
Arralen said:
Don't confuse "Master of The Way" (100gp/WR2H) with "Master of Five Elements"(whatever) ...
Oh, hmm, I did exactly that. At any rate, I will take that suggestion under consideration (and probably accept it, considering how worthless Master of the Way is) for the recruitable rebalance mod v8, but I'm going to lock the current iteration (7.x) to balance changes unless bugs or major problems (like national spells becoming inadvertently nerfed) are noted... to avoid additional confusion. Hopefully TC has been boosted enough to compete in MP without communion, but we'll see...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 11:22 PM
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Default Test game spot(s) open

Mod test game recruitment phase ended. Hopefully, valuable balance data will be gleaned for version 8 of this mod
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Old April 4th, 2005, 09:04 AM

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Default Re: Bugs to be fixed...

IMHO
AP longbows would be waaay too powerful - I think they were AP in Dom1, and they were too powerful... Give'em some more damage if wanted, but AP should be reserved to heavy clumsy weapons like Xbows
OTOH I'd rather have all bow/Xbow range extended (at least to prevent archers from rushing to front !) than some reduced
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Old April 4th, 2005, 03:41 PM

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Default Re: Bugs to be fixed... (LONG)

Always good to leap into the fray very late in the process... (and this is going to be LONG)

First comment, remember that this is a game, not a sim. While many of us would like it to be one (at times, me too!), it is really about having different tactical options and using them as best as they can be used.

Summary of suggestions:
Shortbow 0 AP, -2 precision range short
Longbow 4-6 AP, -2 precision range longer
Crossbow 10-12 AP, 0 precision longer yet
Arbalest 14-18 AP, 0 precision longest
Slings (cheap) same as before
Slings (elite) 10, maybe 4 AP, -3 precision, between short and longbow range
Blowguns - put back at original, up the poison (curare/paralysis?)
New- Tien Chi'n repeating xbow -2 AP, 0 precision, 20 range, mild poison.
rate of fire: 1 or 1.5/1 (fast reload, easy cocking)
====
Important notes: Longbowmen and the Slingers (elite) are elite and should
use the mechanism of having a high resource cost - they should cost as
much as a knight. Not because their equipment is expensive but because their training is expensive! There should only be a few available per turn. The other troops are militia or conscript quality.

Details (or why I'm shoot my mouth off (and maybe foot, too)):

AP - actually, any of the really pointy toys should be AP. Afterall, "AP" is nothing more than a mechanic to describe the physics of taking the force of the weapon and applying it to a very small area. Spear wpns in a charge or vs. a charge should be that way. Picks and the like are AP. All of the bow weapons are AP. Now, modelling that in the game correctly is going to be amusing.

Bows: actually, bows are AP only at close range and after that, they are going too slow to really pierce the heavier armors. However, the arrows inflict rather nasty wounds once they penetrate due to the instability of the flight path causing the wound to be ... complicated. The game can't support this level of modelling, iiuc. Also of note, different arrows were used for different targets. There were bodkin points for heavy armors, broadleaf points for no armor or v. light armors, and intermediate designs for other cases. This also complicates the game modelling problem.

XBows: they ARE long range, they ARE AP at all times. The xbow outranged the longbow. The quarrel is aerodynamically more efficient than the arrow at all points in the flight. IIRC, there was pretty much only one type of point for the xbow. This implies that it didn't really matter much what was used, it would hurt. (and I'm pretty sure the medievals checked this out - there are too many other examples of design improvements in weapons for that to have skipped.)

However, the biggest problem I see is that the troop recruitment methods are broken for distinguishing between these three troop types. Of the 3 - shortbow archers (sba), longbowmen (lbm), and xbowmwen (xbm), the lbm took a hideously long time to train. Recall that the ones used at Agincourt et al were the best of the best, sir! As such, they were HIGH morale, HIGH precision, and few in number. But, there is no mechanism in the game to model this. The sba troops were often levies, or issued bows on short notice, and the bow is a difficult weapon to master. They were lower morale, low precision, and expendable. The xbm were usually similar to the sba except that the xbow is v. easy to learn. So they should be low morale, high precision, and cheap in gold but less so resources. In game terms, one should only be able to recruit a few lbm per turn, while easily able to get many more sba or xbm. The only way I can see to model this is to up the resource cost beyond what the actual material costs are. Note, the national xbm (Marignon, for ex.) probably should be higher morale, better trained, etc. - they're not rabble given the death-dealer.

Another example of how "elite" the lbm were: they could pull a 150-200 lbs bow. This has shown up as distortions in their skeletal structure. The typical shortbow used for war is ~60 lbs. That takes loads of training. These guys were serious about bows. After Agincourt (iirc), the French tried to field their own lbm but failed. They didn't have the infrastructure designed to turn out vast numbers of archers that could then be culled down to those few that were superlative.

I would suggest going with AP 0 for short bows with a precision of -2/-3, AP 4-6 for the longbows with a prec. -2/-3 but the lbm are more highly trained!, and the xbows getting AP 10 or 12 and a prec of 0. Plate was pretty much only good for keeping the quarrel from coming out the back of the armor. The other projectiles operate under pretty much the same physics but just have lesser force behind them.

Slings: they are actually MUCH more dangerous than DomII models them. They are longer range than shortbows. They were noted for causing spalling to plate armors. For flexible armors, they were quite nasty as well. Note, the Rhodian and Balaeric slingers were much like the lbm - they were highly trained units and much sought after. Once the supply was wiped out, they pretty much disappeared from the battlefield. Professional slingers did NOT use random rocks found on the battlefield but instead used either cast lead or ceramic bullets - including incriptions and taunts cast in. If one wanted to mod "historical" slingers into the game, I would propose a range between shortbows and longbows, 10 pts damage, maybe 4 AP, precision of -3, but again, the troops are highly trained so the effective precision should be much higher. Gold cost would be moderate but the resource cost should be high - there are not that many of them.
------ of note: once the numbers of these professional slingers began to fall, the Romans opted to train new ones to use one swing around before launching their missiles. Previous accounts put the number at 3. Prowling the various sites that discuss slinging in modern times, folks claim to not be able to gain any advantage from doing more than once through the arc. I would put forth though that if the ancient slingers did 3, they meant to do 3 and that 3 gave them some advantage. Note that they were trained from a very young age to sling, unlike these modern blokes. The reason for the dropping of the number of swings by the Romans, as I understand it, was to make up in volume what they had lost in accuracy from using troops of poorer training.

Last bit: what of adding the repeating xbow for Tien Chi'n? It would be about as dangerous as the shortbow for impact, shorter range, maybe higher rate of fire, and with a mild poison? Troops were conscripts - point, shoot, run if out of ammo

Just to be complete: Blowguns are probably silly in the context of a sim, but fun as a game mechanic. No army ever fielded them. Why? They suck as weapons. The darts have horrible aerodynamics and the muscles used to propel them are rather weak. The physics of the blowgun are ugly for power projection. Practically, they are extremely close range and mostly used to shot vertically since they have huge, arcing flights. Personally? Leave the blowguns as is. Maybe make the poison more deadly? Mimic curare (paralysis)?

Sources: I'm doing this from memory with the following books and articles being source material. If called for, I can try to dredge through and find out why I wrote a particular bit.

Thomas Hardy - Longbow
Ralph Payne-Gallway - The Art of the Crossbow
2 Scienterrific American articles - one on bows and one on crossbows,
from the late '80's, early '90's (someone
borrowed them from me... grrr.)
Osprey's Military History books - oh, lots of 'em
oops, blanking on the author - The Medieval Art of Swordplay
Arthur Ffoulkes - The Armourer and his Art (iirc)
emails w/an honest to god, working plattner - "So, what about a longbow
arrow hitting your plate?" "Oh, it'd go right through it!"
Several books on ancient warfare - various authors have noted that the
various descriptions of the orders of battle have placed the slingers
BEHIND the sba (e.g. - Trajan's Column). They also describe the wounds
from the slings. Not pretty.
"Rocky" Russo - lecture series. He's also the author of "Achtung, Mustang"
(which is not relevant other than to give him some bonefides) - a WWII
air combat game, and "The Art of War", an ancients - renaissance
minis game. He also actually TESTS his work using replicas - as in
shooting xbows, throwing martio barbellae, and the like. Wish he had
a website...
Prime Mover: A natural history of muscle (have forgotten the author)
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  #8  
Old April 4th, 2005, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Bugs to be fixed... (LONG)

English Longbowmen wheren't a chosen few, they where some bizarre form of conscripts. Longbows won battles by volume of fire, not precision. (very much like machine guns)

Do not use weapons with negative prec in the game. Due to the (not fully known) mechanics of battle calculations, those weapons tend to hit nothing - not even remotedly the square they are targeted at, and generally empty squares. (Try with slingers). Upping the prec of the archers themselves does not really help.

Crossbows do not outrange Longbows:
- Aerodynamics of the shorter, thicker bolt are actually worse then that of a Longbow arrow. Problem with Longbow arrows was(is) that they allowed very small tolerances only, before the deviation in flight path gets to big. Additionally, bolts are much sturdier than arrows
- Longbows where used for balistical mass archery. The thick crossbow bolt looses too much energy when fired in a ballistic arc. Crossbows where fired straight at the nearby enemy, from the second or third row of the shield wall.
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Old April 4th, 2005, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Bugs to be fixed... (LONG)

Are you sure all that armor-piercing stuff wouldn't unbalance the game? It is, after all, a game, not a sim.

This would make almost any ranged unit work against armor. The Ulm is said to be the weakest nation because it only has its troops going for it, and the only thing that supposedly makes them special is their armor.

Also, you wrote up '0 AP' as the damage for short bow. Does that mean that the strength of the shooter is added? Is it added for longbows, too? What about slings?
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