Unit Cost Equation

Oversway · #1 March 23rd, 2005, 12:53 PM

That makes sense to me. Most national mages have about the same hp: between 10 and 20. It is the increased magic that bumps the price up. I think only jotun and pan have really high hps mages. I may have missed some, but the majority do not. So the difference in hp is a wash compared to other attributes.

Scott Hebert · #2 March 23rd, 2005, 01:12 PM

Perhaps, but the main reason that the Pan (to take an example) costs so much is not his magic, but his other abilities (HPs, Str, etc.).

I mean, if I tried to use this to make a mage, I could conceivably give them 1000 HPs, and have it cost no more than a mage with 10.

It's an interesting piece of math, but as a way to cost things, I'm not sure how useful it is.

Is there any way to get simple correlative data?

Oversway · #3 March 23rd, 2005, 01:31 PM

Another explanation is that hp and strength (or some other attribute) are not independant: every high hp mage also has high strength, and the so the curve happens to fit well enough by just using one of the attributes.

Hence the dangers of using interpolation for extrapolation

Then again, one could argue that your 1000hp mage with 5str doesn't fit well with dominions.

p.s. I'm not a math genius. I might have it all wrong.

Scott Hebert · #4 March 23rd, 2005, 01:39 PM

Oh, I think I have a decent enough grasp of the math to agree with you that high-HPs and high-Str correlate to the point that one might overshadow the other in this equation.

However, for the purposes of uncovering a unit cost equation, the correlations need to be explicit.

What I mean is, if you tell me 'HP base is 2/3 Str, with a direct proportion after that', that is a lot more helpful as a gauge of making units. If that is what is necessary to make the equation truly useful, then I'd really like to have that.

BigDaddy · #5 March 23rd, 2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Scott Hebert said:
Oh, I think I have a decent enough grasp of the math to agree with you that high-HPs and high-Str correlate to the point that one might overshadow the other in this equation.

However, for the purposes of uncovering a unit cost equation, the correlations need to be explicit.

What I mean is, if you tell me 'HP base is 2/3 Str, with a direct proportion after that', that is a lot more helpful as a gauge of making units. If that is what is necessary to make the equation truly useful, then I'd really like to have that.

All you really need to have is the ranges the equation came from, OR just make units that look similar to already existing ones. This equation was never meant to make units significantly more powerful than those that exist. Only to explain the price of the units that DO exist. So, the more your units look like those the more likely they are to be well priced.

To find out how much huge HP amounts are worth, you need to study powerful summoned monsters. . .

Scott Hebert · #6 March 23rd, 2005, 02:33 PM

However, if I wanted to make oddball units (and, really, modders generally want to make those, not 'more of the same'), this won't help as much.

BigDaddy · #7 March 23rd, 2005, 02:51 PM

Thats why I reccomend doing a similar study of the summonables. With their higher skill levels, natural protection, hp, etc. they would show a clearer picture of what these very desiravle characteristics cost. ALSO, we know the approximate gold value of 3 types of gems (death, fire, and earth). Sushi is skilled enough to make non-linear guesses, as is likely important to describe the costs of some units like the iron dragon and tarasque. He probably does not have the time to do everything at once though.

Besides, most modders make new normal units, and as long as their units aren't significantly BETTER than say Vans, there shouldn't be a problem. Vans are pretty tough, if you want to make a unit significantly more powerful you will need another method. But consider the balance of such a race. The race would probably have crappy priests and expensive mages, with no research mage, or something like that. Typical power nerfs appear to be:

-weak priests
-slow "best" national research mage
-crappy national mages
-extra expensive mages
-crappy sacred units
-"capitol only" good units and other units that suck or are extra expensive
-crappy stealth units (no spy, assasin, or stealth commander)
-lack of random path mages
etc.

Anyone else have a good nerfing rule?

BigDaddy · #8 March 23rd, 2005, 01:42 PM

This equation is meant to give you a guideline for developing or repricing units. If you want to min/max your units you CAN, but it doesn't follow the spirit of the game. For instance, any size 2 unit with more than 17 hps better have a good explanation (like the fact that its a lich).