Unit Cost Equation

[Oversway]

Another explanation is that hp and strength (or some other attribute) are not independant: every high hp mage also has high strength, and the so the curve happens to fit well enough by just using one of the attributes.

Hence the dangers of using interpolation for extrapolation

Then again, one could argue that your 1000hp mage with 5str doesn't fit well with dominions.


p.s. I'm not a math genius. I might have it all wrong.

[Scott Hebert]

Oh, I think I have a decent enough grasp of the math to agree with you that high-HPs and high-Str correlate to the point that one might overshadow the other in this equation.

However, for the purposes of uncovering a unit cost equation, the correlations need to be explicit.

What I mean is, if you tell me 'HP base is 2/3 Str, with a direct proportion after that', that is a lot more helpful as a gauge of making units. If that is what is necessary to make the equation truly useful, then I'd really like to have that.

[BigDaddy]

Scott Hebert said:
Oh, I think I have a decent enough grasp of the math to agree with you that high-HPs and high-Str correlate to the point that one might overshadow the other in this equation.

However, for the purposes of uncovering a unit cost equation, the correlations need to be explicit.

What I mean is, if you tell me 'HP base is 2/3 Str, with a direct proportion after that', that is a lot more helpful as a gauge of making units. If that is what is necessary to make the equation truly useful, then I'd really like to have that.

All you really need to have is the ranges the equation came from, OR just make units that look similar to already existing ones. This equation was never meant to make units significantly more powerful than those that exist. Only to explain the price of the units that DO exist. So, the more your units look like those the more likely they are to be well priced.

To find out how much huge HP amounts are worth, you need to study powerful summoned monsters. . .

[Scott Hebert]

However, if I wanted to make oddball units (and, really, modders generally want to make those, not 'more of the same'), this won't help as much.

[BigDaddy]

Thats why I reccomend doing a similar study of the summonables. With their higher skill levels, natural protection, hp, etc. they would show a clearer picture of what these very desiravle characteristics cost. ALSO, we know the approximate gold value of 3 types of gems (death, fire, and earth). Sushi is skilled enough to make non-linear guesses, as is likely important to describe the costs of some units like the iron dragon and tarasque. He probably does not have the time to do everything at once though.

Besides, most modders make new normal units, and as long as their units aren't significantly BETTER than say Vans, there shouldn't be a problem. Vans are pretty tough, if you want to make a unit significantly more powerful you will need another method. But consider the balance of such a race. The race would probably have crappy priests and expensive mages, with no research mage, or something like that. Typical power nerfs appear to be:

-weak priests
-slow "best" national research mage
-crappy national mages
-extra expensive mages
-crappy sacred units
-"capitol only" good units and other units that suck or are extra expensive
-crappy stealth units (no spy, assasin, or stealth commander)
-lack of random path mages
etc.

Anyone else have a good nerfing rule?

[sushiboat]

OK, here is a new mage formula, with magic paths added. I also made some
procedural changes with modders in mind. Below the main formula are the
composite formulae I created in order to deal with the problem of coefficients
that should not be negative in the context of utility in the game.

Mage Commander (Adjusted R-squared = .95)

Cost = (4.2 * MagicRes) + (.3 * TacMove) + (34.3 * FullRand) +
(34.7 * ElemRand) + (27.1 * SorcRand) + (37.3 * Blood) + (27.5 * Death) +
(28.0 * Earth) + (29.5 * Fire) + (35.1 * Nature) + (32.7 * Astral) +
(34.5 * Water) + (15.2 * Holy) + (25.6 * Unholy) + (11.6 * Air_Prec) +
(2.9 * Att_Def) + (8.5 * Mor_RegLdr) + (6.6 * HP_Str_Prot)

Air_Prec = ((Air - .3) / .8) + ((Prec - 10.6) / 1.9)

Att_Def = ((Att - 9.4) / 2.1) + ((Def - 9.6) / 3.1)

Mor_RegLdr = ((Morale - 11.8) / 1.9) + ((RegLdr - 22.0) / 18.8)

HP_Str_Prot = ((HP - 12.7) / 8.1) + ((Str - 10.5) / 3.2) + ((Prot - 2.9) / 4.9)


Attached is some statistical output for math jocks.

[sushiboat]

The most recent formula above provides an excellent fit to the data. However,
it may be interesting to see where the formula and the real price in the game
are very different. According to the formula, below are the top ten bargains
and ten worst buys for mages. What do you think?

Code:

---

Mage               Real_Price   Formula



Asmeg Jarl             160      249

Troll King             150      225

Centaur Hierophant      80      153

Sidhe Champion         140      210

Theurg                 150      218

Sidhe Lord             280      348

Circle Master          100      164

Master 5 Elem.         190      252

Grand Master           270      330

Garnet Priestess       100      158



Pan                    350      283

Arch Theurg            380      300

Niefel Jarl            500      419

Navigator              180       86

Capricorn              350      255

Lizard King            280      183

Hangadrott             400      282

High Priest of Sun     390      264

Anathemant Dragon      360      230

Alchemist              300      106

---

[BigDaddy]

This equation is meant to give you a guideline for developing or repricing units. If you want to min/max your units you CAN, but it doesn't follow the spirit of the game. For instance, any size 2 unit with more than 17 hps better have a good explanation (like the fact that its a lich).