ArcoBlood Mod Finished

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:
Atheism is an amusing 'religion', since it is impossible to prove a negative. As far as evidence of God, I believe there is quite a bit of evidence. The fact that some people do not believe so has always rather astonished me.

Was this directed at me? I think it has not been near proven the existence of something before the universe, but it is certainly a strong possibility. I do find the sort of being that most religions describe (mostly concerned with humans/earth as opposed to the rest of universe, answering prayers, sending prophets, and in general constantly tinkering) highly unlikely. I would be interested in your strong evidence, however.

[Scott Hebert]

Actually, it was not directed towards anyone in particular. I will note, though, that as untenable as agnosticism is, atheism is even more so.

If you would like to hear about evidence, please PM me. This thread is too cluttered already.

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:
Actually, it was not directed towards anyone in particular. I will note, though, that as untenable as agnosticism is, atheism is even more so.

If you would like to hear about evidence, please PM me. This thread is too cluttered already.

Sorry, but I think I'll take a rain check, out of this discussion I have already received one 'preachy' PM. I can see we are already talking past each other anyway.

I must admit I am more than surprised at the number of serious christians on the forum, given how easily most of them are offended.

[The_Tauren13]

Religion is just yet another excuse for people to gain power over others... and it works surprisingly well, too. One would think these people would realize theyre just thralls and drop out of the loop after a while.

[quantum_mechani]

The_Tauren13 said:
Religion is just yet another excuse for people to gain power over others... and it works surprisingly well, too. One would think these people would realize theyre just thralls and drop out of the loop after a while.

The strange thing is, as much debate as there is about the existence of a god, it is almost about one that is going around commanding people and issuing rewards and punishments. When you boil away all the nonsense about a god(s) setting rules for humans to follow, and the complex myths that inevitably come with organized religions, the question of whether or not something designed the universe becomes not that important.

[The_Tauren13]

quantum_mechani said:
...the question of whether or not something designed the universe becomes not that important.

Thats true. You could say I believe in god simply because I dont believe that dark matter really exists, yet I find the big bang theory reasonable enough. Without dark matter, there is not enough matter in the universe for it to eventually stop expanding and collapse. So, if there isnt dark matter, some force had to create the universe as it was before the big bang. Why not call that force 'God'? It doesnt really matter, as long as it isnt pointlessly mettling in the affairs of humans. And that I would find nearly impossible to believe. Its pretty damn conceited to think that some all powerful diety would care at all about us.

[quantum_mechani]

The_Tauren13 said:

Thats true. You could say I believe in god simply because I dont believe that dark matter really exists, yet I find the big bang theory reasonable enough. Without dark matter, there is not enough matter in the universe for it to eventually stop expanding and collapse. So, if there isnt dark matter, some force had to create the universe as it was before the big bang. Why not call that force 'God'? It doesnt really matter, as long as it isnt pointlessly mettling in the affairs of humans. And that I would find nearly impossible to believe. Its pretty damn conceited to think that some all powerful diety would care at all about us.

Thanks, that is exactly what I was getting at

[Arryn]

The_Tauren13 said:
some force had to create the universe as it was before the big bang

Actually, this is a logical fallacy. You are quickly (and conveniently) explaining away something in the natural universe, that is (as yet) not understood, by means of the supernatural. It's the same reasoning that had humans inventing rain gods not so long ago.

The_Tauren13 said:
Its pretty damn conceited to think that some all powerful diety would care at all about us.

If some deity was all-powerful, why would it create flawed beings? For amusement is the only logical answer. The more advanced the being, the greater the need for play. If you believe in some deity then you must believe we're all a not-so-huge cosmic joke. Unless ... people's pet deities are *not* all-powerful and all-knowing. I'll let folks try to figure out the ramifications of such a concept with regards to organized religions.

Humans invent deities because (most) humans are fundamentally insecure, and want someone or something to provide direction, meaning, and authority. It's also why, despite us having knowledge of democratic principles dating back from ancient times, most humans on this planet continue to tolerate dictatorships (in one form or another) to this day.

[TheSelfishGene]

The_Tauren13 said:

Thats true. You could say I believe in god simply because I dont believe that dark matter really exists, yet I find the big bang theory reasonable enough. Without dark matter, there is not enough matter in the universe for it to eventually stop expanding and collapse. So, if there isnt dark matter, some force had to create the universe as it was before the big bang. Why not call that force 'God'? It doesnt really matter, as long as it isnt pointlessly mettling in the affairs of humans. And that I would find nearly impossible to believe. Its pretty damn conceited to think that some all powerful diety would care at all about us.

Actually the ability for a God to meddle in the affairs of men is amazingly limited, because of the, for lack of a better phrase, "butterfly effect".

If you save Janine from cancer (say), and Janine runs into Clarice with her car and kills her, 20 years later, did God just kill Clarice to save Janine? No problem! God can fix that, he's God and can do anything! Sure.... except for that annoying concept of Free Will. If God created us to excerise Free Will, only to be constantly meddling in our everyday activities to reward believers, or subtly changing events without our knowledge at every turn, it rather cheapens the game of life, no?

Of course this logic, rather bizarrely, agrees with the "manifestation mythology" of the Old Testament - when God is going to change things, The Man shows up, not some trivial and lengthy chains of causation. It also means, of course, that you shouldn't bother praying to God since he can't help you anyway. At least if your praying for some temporal aid, although it doesn't exclude "guiding your heart".

[BigDaddy]

quantum_mechani said:

Sorry, but I think I'll take a rain check, out of this discussion I have already received one 'preachy' PM. I can see we are already talking past each other anyway.

I must admit I am more than surprised at the number of serious christians on the forum, given how easily most of them are offended.

I am not offended, and won't crawl into a hole. You may be right about the "preachy" PM, perhaps it should have been public. Why don't you post it?

All I sent was an encouraging Thank you.