ArcoBlood Mod Finished

[johan osterman]

BigDaddy said:
...
God is definetly to be feared, and he well may be impossible to fit in nice tidy rules. Aetheism is a fools bet; You bet everything that you get nothing rather than betting everything that you get everything. . . Primarily do to a lack of will to SEEK the truth.

How do you know which brand of religion will result a positive outcome of the bet. What if God rewards people for not worshipping him, and sends to hell those that do. Unless you introduce what it to most atheist very unsatisfactory reasoning it is not at all clear what form of worship you should bet on. While there are christians that like to claim that christianity is the only self consistent religion this is not at all evident to most outside observers. And as long as you have no sure knowledge of how to act in order to achieve a positive outcome of the bet and have no idea of what the reward in itself to be there is no particular point in making the bet at all. So without an effective, effective as in convincing to nonbelievers, way of showing that any particular worship dominates the others and results in a positive outcome the Pascals wager is pointless.

[The_Tauren13]

It appears even god is atheist

[BigDaddy]

Johan,

It's very interesting that you brought that up. It is the belief of Catholics that those who live a clean life (living the way they know is right) can be "saved by grace." Good people aren't necessarily sent to hell. Particular religions that have beliefs in clean living are Buddhism, most christian religions, and Islam. The real point here is just to be true to yourself, and do what you honestly believe is right. It helps, of course, if you have moral guidance of some type.

[johan osterman]

BigDaddy said:
Johan,

It's very interesting that you brought that up. It is the belief of Catholics that those who live a clean life (living the way they know is right) can be "saved by grace." Good people aren't necessarily sent to hell. Particular religions that have beliefs in clean living are Buddhism, most christian religions, and Islam. The real point here is just to be true to yourself, and do what you honestly believe is right. It helps, of course, if you have moral guidance of some type.

Well, that still leaves the problem that the only way to choose between the set of possible behaviours is to presuppose that one of the betting outcomes is going to obtain. In essence you have a betting situation where you have an infinite set of possible bets and possible states, and you have no information availible by which to discern what state is likely to obtain, besides from information you gain by presupposing that one particular state will obtain, which is question begging. Not only that, you also have no information what the reward will be for each bet dependent on the state that obtains is, besides, once again, any info you come by by presupposing the state you are betting on.

[BigDaddy]

johan osterman said:
Well, that still leaves the problem that the only way to choose between the set of possible behaviours is to presuppose that one of the betting outcomes is going to obtain. In essence you have a betting situation where you have an infinite set of possible bets and possible states, and you have no information availible by which to discern what state is likely to obtain, besides from information you gain by presupposing that one particular state will obtain, which is question begging. Not only that, you also have no information what the reward will be for each bet dependent on the state that obtains is, besides, once again, any info you come by by presupposing the state you are betting on.

Johan,
Really you are making things too difficult. Most religions have a set of rules that shows a proper moral path, which Catholics believes can allow you to be saved by grace.

But it is even simpler than that. Do you KILL people? Do you CHEAT on your spouse? Do you STEAL? Do you LIE? Do you WORSHIP the things you have or that other people have such that you are consumed by greed or rage?

Admittedly, we are ALL GUILTY of some of these things. Now ask yourself: Do I try not to do these things? Do I feel guilty when I do these things?

That is the law of God.

If you are a student of philosophy, which I suspect you might be, you will easily find another arguement! Likely one concerning pleasure on earth, or the existence of heaven. A mass murderer had an excellent grasp of philosophy and could successfully defend his theory that murder was good (can't remeber off hand which murderer).

[Zen]

If you are a student of philosophy, which I suspect you might be, you will easily find another arguement! Likely one concerning pleasure on earth, or the existence of heaven. A mass murderer had an excellent grasp of philosophy and could successfully defend his theory that murder was good (can't remeber off hand which murderer).

Of course, the other side is amusing. That a faithful devotee of religion could also successfully "defend" his theory that religion is good.

Awfully high on that pedestal.

[BigDaddy]

Zen said:

Of course, the other side is amusing. That a faithful devotee of religion could also successfully "defend" his theory that religion is good.

Awfully high on that pedestal.

I assumed I wouldn't have to discuss religions positive effect on society.

You have colored that particular arguement with the spirit of another one. Except for the second to last comment, the entire arguement is one you will find in any philosphy class. That is why it was finished with the portion you quoted.

quantum_mechani said:

Do you not think it is possible that an aversion to such things might be ingrained by society and/or (and I hesitate to take the discussion in this direction) evolution?

Of course. I knew that that possibility would be mentioned. I would suggest asking thugs in prison if they where wrong to kill, but I have no idea what they would say. I'm sure, though, that many would say they were sorry that they got caught.

[Zen]

BigDaddy said:
I assumed I wouldn't have to discuss religions positive effect on society.

I'd actually rather you discuss the positive effect of mass murder on society. As it's incredibly prevalent in and outside of religion.

Just because something has a positive effect (purely perspective) doesn't mean it's overall impact is equated one way or another.

Even if you could possibly understand the scope of the entirety of something like "Religion" or "Murder".

[Kristoffer O]

BigDaddy said:

Of course. I knew that that possibility would be mentioned. I would suggest asking thugs in prison if they where wrong to kill, but I have no idea what they would say. I'm sure, though, that many would say they were sorry that they got caught.

I've visited a prison with a couple of my students and talked to a sentenced murderer. I find it likely that he was sorry that he was caught, but his main concern was some kind of regret. He repeatedly told my students that 'it is very easy to kill a human'. He had a son and wanted a new life outside the prison.

Everyone knows that it is wrong to kill, at least in the eyes of society. Most people understand that if you want to live in it you have to abide by its rules. Most people can also relate to or come up with the notion that you might not want to do to others what you yourself do not want them to do to you. Psychopaths perhaps lack this ability, but can still be taught the implications of not following the rules of society.

[quantum_mechani]

BigDaddy said:

But it is even simpler than that. Do you KILL people? Do you CHEAT on your spouse? Do you STEAL? Do you LIE? Do you WORSHIP the things you have or that other people have such that you are consumed by greed or rage?

Admittedly, we are ALL GUILTY of some of these things. Now ask yourself: Do I try not to do these things? Do I feel guilty when I do these things?

That is the law of God.

Do you not think it is possible that an aversion to such things might be ingrained by society and/or (and I hesitate to take the discussion in this direction) evolution?